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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterland View Post
    Sometimes, I pick up an attitude if we are not from Germany than we can't be German or less than German? Is this true?
    Jein. One doesn't need to be from Germany to be German, we have ethnic German members from other territories, however German is not just a question of ancestry/genes, but a question of ancestry + culture + language (the latter two which are sometimes ignored), as well as a sense of identification with/loyalty to and ties to the German nation. An ethnic German from the diaspora considers Germany/Germans their nation or fatherland/motherland and whichever country they live in just that, a country they happen to live in and which they are an ethnic minority in. They have no special emotional ties with it or its native population, or, if they do, they aren't stronger than their ties to the German nation. Ethnic Germans from the diaspora usually have a hope, or at least a desire, to return to their homeland at some point in future. Many Germans from Eastern Europe for example have done this already. Another feature of diaspora communities is a resistance to language change and maintenance of traditional cultural and religious practices. Diasporas may also exert significant pressure in its homeland's domestic political arena regarding issues of diaspora concern. For example, Germany offered a right of return to ethnic Germans living in countries of the former Warsaw Pact and Yugoslavia, the Federation of Expellees represents the interests of ethnic Germans and their families, etc.

    German-Americans don't usually identify in this manner though. The German- in German-American is often an epithet/byname. They identify as American first and foremost, consider the US their home country/nation, have a connection to the Star Spangled Banner, etc. Many don't speak German as a native language nor on a regular basis. They display the Stars and Stripes in their clubs and sing the American national anthem. The Steuben Society, one of the most prominent German-American societies was founded with the aim "to thoroughly Americanize the relics of formerly independent Germanness."

    Particularly after WWI and WWII, German heritage in the US has been in decline. This was also the time German-Americans anglicized their names and cultural practices: Braun became Brown, Müller Miller, Schmidt Smith, Becker Baker and so on. Towns and streets with German names were renamed - e.g. New Berlin in Ohio became North Canton, in Indianapolis, Bismarck Avenue and Germania Street were renamed Pershing Avenue and Belleview Street, many businesses changed their names also - e.g. in Chicago, German Hospital became Grant Hospital, in New York, the giant Germania Life Insurance Company became Guardian. Hamburgers were temporarily referred to as "liberty sandwiches" and sauerkraut as "liberty cabbage." Even dogs were not immune to harassment: dachshunds, or "liberty pups," the Kaiser’s favorite dog breed, were virtually driven off the streets of Cincinnati. The German Shepherd breed of dog was renamed to the euphemistic "Alsatian"; the English Kennel Club only reauthorised the use of 'German Shepherd' as an official name in 1977. German identity suddenly became a politicized matter. Germans were associated with "Huns" or "Nazis" and posters, speeches and newspaper articles portrayed them as barbaric and evil. German-Americans were thus looked upon with suspicion and forced to pick a side, ideally the American one, e.g. as in this Liberty Bond advertisement telling German- and Austrian-Americans that their loyalties are with their "new country", and not Germany:



    Former president Theodore Roosevelt denounced hyphenated Americanism, insisting that dual loyalties were impossible in wartime. The result was that most German-Americans supported the US throughout WWI, purchasing war bonds and rationing resources along with the rest of the American population. Those who did not could risk being labeled spies or endorsing the German war effort. Some Germans were actually convicted and imprisoned on charges of sedition, for refusing to swear allegiance to the US war effort.

    Many schools limited or stopped teaching German language and literature as well, and teachers had to take loyalty oaths. Books published in German were removed from libraries or even burned. People reduced the amount of German they spoke in public, and made their cultural and religious activities increasingly private affairs. German-American novelist Kurt Vonnegut recounts that his parents were so shamed by the anti-German hatemongering that they refused to speak German and to share German literature, German music or even the family's own chronicle with him. The result was that later on he felt "purely American in cultural respects, but German-American by the standards of the dog breeder's association!" A political periodical from the 1940s described America as the "mass grave of the German emigrant".

    Surely, it was a tough period in history where many ethnic Germans were persecuted based on their heritage, nevermind their loyalty so it wasn't an easy choice to make, especially if you had a family to protect as well. This was the case for Europe as well, where the ethnic German diaspora was sent to forced labor camps. Ethnic Germans also suffered discrimination under the post-war communist regimes, which saw a similar decline culture and language-wise. One can only look to the future though. Language and culture can be revived, as long as there is initiative and will.

    The case of Germans in the US is also peculiar because the US has been regarded by some as a "melting pot" of Germanic/European ethnicities. Of the 44 million of German-Americans, how many are predominantly or exclusively German by ancestry and how many are mixed with other Germanic or European ethnicities such as English, Irish, Scottish, Italian, Polish, etc.?

    That doesn't mean German-Americans are seen as less Germanic than Germans, they're still considered Germanic on Skadi. I guess one issue that keeps popping up is the confusion of the term Germanic with the term German in the English language. On Skadi, when we say Germanic, we refer to the ethnolinguistic group and not exclusively to the German ethnicity. This issue doesn't exist in other Germanic languages, which use a variation of the term Deutsch for German (e.g. Germanisch/Deutsch, Germaans/Duits, Germansk/Tysk).

    What are people like us, "German Americans", to Germans on this board? Most will reply "American," lol.
    American, German-American or American of German descent, depending on whether one perceives hyphenated Americanism as a valid identity or not. There is already a debate on this topic here and opinions differ both on the European and American side. We in general don't mind the hyphen in profiles, if one strongly identifies with their German heritage and roots.

    Open discussions are good to a point but may drive people to different sites like Apricity if Germanism becomes too prevalent. Are Germans a closed community or are we more welcoming to other Germanics similar but not identical to ourselves?
    That's actually the point, Germanism isn't intended to be the only prevalent ideology, which is why we don't encourage everyone to identify with it or LARP as German, but for each Germanic ethnicity to be proud of their own identity and culture. We don't mind Americans of Germanic descent, we consider them just as Germanic, even if they are of mixed ancestry (as long as the sum of those ancestries is still pred. Germanic, of course). Skadi also has room for Anglo-Saxons, Dutch, Scandinavians, Icelanders, as well as the Germanic-descended population from the New World (the US, Canada, Australia & NZ, South Africa).

    Quote Originally Posted by Salsa View Post
    What do you mean? Am I only true germanic if I support Third Reich?
    One doesn't have to be a supporter of the Third Reich to be truly German(ic), that said taking up arms for a foreign nation does place one's sense of loyalty and identity into question, particularly when that nation is at war against your own (or viceversa). If you are German, your nation is Germany. Now sure, not everyone has a "my country, right or wrong" attitude however the fact remains that an offensive against Germany means an offensive against Germans, leading to the loss of German lives, not to mention the potential destruction of the German economy, infrastructure, etc. Unless it's a necessary evil - for example, to free the German people from a tyrannical regime, etc. - such a position makes little sense to actively endorse. And then there's the question of who has the best interests of Germans at heart - one's own nation/mother/fatherland or a foreign one? One can say a lot about NS Germany however one of its main goals was the unification of all Germans ("the same blood belongs into a unified Reich"). Even those who disliked the eccentricities of Hitlerism recognized that much. On the other hand, what has the US done to promote the preservation of German heritage? The US is an Anglo nation at heart; traditionally, American culture was WASP, other Germanic and European ethnicities came later. Also, during WWII, the US was dominated by anti-Germanism much like during WWI, particularly in the media. Even the most avid anti-NS German would have still found himself in the anti-German stereotypes and propaganda. It would also have been something else if the Germans in America who opposed the Third Reich formed organizations like (or developed ties with) the German Resistance movement, speaking against NS but from a pro-German perspective. Contrary to propaganda, the US did not fight WWII with Germany to liberate the German people.

    In practice, dual loyalty is seldom possible, sooner or later one will have to pick an identity, particularly at times of war. The Jewish diaspora in the US for example is pretty clear on where its loyalties lay should push come to shove.

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  3. #92
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    There's a Scandosphere (Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland), Anglosphere (UK, Ireland, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa), Germanosphere (Germany, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Austria) and Netherlandosphere (Netherlands, Belgium). We all belong to one of those spheres of influence and none of us is an island unto ourselves. Why is this so hard to understand? I agree completely with our non-Anglo comrades about this BS multiculturalism stoked by "White ethnic" Democrats, basically. If you're American of Germanic ancestry, it's impossible to be "White ethnic". In Britain, "White ethnic" basically means Polish, because it's outside of the metaethnicity, but none of the Nassau, Wittelsbach, Welf, Wettin or Oldenburg Royal family is considered "White ethnic" in England. Please, stop being pathetic and embarrassing BOTH the Anglosphere and...take your pick: Scandosphere, Germanosphere or Netherlandosphere.

    The only manner in which I "larped" touching on the Scandosphere had to do with Danelaw roots in England, not independently--the same as those with ancestors who colonised New Sweden could do it with regard for America in particular, rather than just some Minnesota Swedes off the boat. I happen to be able to see my ancestors listed on the Royal charters to some of the English colonies in America, so the King himself signed off on my rights to be here from the start, but between Anglosphere nations, it doesn't really matter whether one is attached to the US or Canada, Australia or New Zealand; it's not crossing the streams of culture, like say, between Australia and Liechtenstein. Some Wessex loyalists definitely are attached to Germany too. Some like Wulfhere are both representing Mercia and long for the Frisian connection more prominent in the Netherlands.

    The Anglosphere does connect to all of them, only we do have a centre of our own and aren't simply an extension of other folks. Rather, we overlap with our fellow Teutons. The unique thing about the Ingvaeones, is that one of each tribe which formed the Angelfolc, once lived in other spheres of influence and those ties should serve us well: Jutes in the Scandosphere, Saxons in the Germanosphere and Frisians in the Netherlandosphere, but the Angles are a folk in our own right, deserving respect for our differences and some measure of self-acceptance should triumph over the name-calling in our direction, the same as the rest don't want to be defined by bad names from us. After all, we do have to deal with Celts and shouldn't lose sight of how precarious it is to keep up the good fight for identity recognition and treatment.

    I agree with most of what Aeternitas wrote, but will only comment about WWII to say that if Austria could join Germany, America could join Britain, as two very obvious alignments. Anyway, there's a real problem in wannabe Germans pretending to be more Teutonic than WASP Americans; it's downright offensive to read all sorts of screeds about this on Skadi. In Germany during WWI, the Prussians made sure Hanover, Brunswick, Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and Saxony all supported their war effort. The least we can do in the Anglosphere is see the Royal family identify as Windsor and those of German ancestry be fine at least with Colonial heritage, or they have no god-damned business even breathing on what's supposed to be OUR SOIL TOGETHER. We expect Italian mafiosos, Mexican wetbacks, Asian businessmen, Jewish perverts and Negro thugs to lack interest and hope they GTFO some time; we understand but don't care for the Irish tomfoolery; Germanic sedition we just cannot afford and hurts us where it matters most, where we care the most!

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