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Thread: Famous Viking Warrior Was a Woman, DNA Reveals

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    Might be true for non warriors.

    Here an image of a Viking burial in Ireland



    The sword on the right side. right like in Recht (law) righteous= gerecht, gericht (court)etc.
    What is the time frame of this grave, keep in mind that by the end of the Viking age most Norse were Christian.

    Despite all this there are more than just this one grave of a female warrior type. Do I think it was common....no, but I do believe they existed.

    Throughout history there have many cases of women playing warrior roles from different cultures in different time periods. Even during the US war between the States it is well documented that there were a few cases of women soldiers that dressed like men and fought in battle. Still again it was most likely rare but it did happen.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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    She might be a woman, but if she is, so what? Are some men scientist really that threatened if they found evidence of a woman warrior? Not like it means that the whole Viking army was made of women, does it? Really, some folks should relax and stop being dramatic each time they find evidence for atypical women's roles.

    Even without this evidence, we've still got women warriors & rulers throughout history, so it's possible. Folks shouldn't be tryin to deny history just cause it doesn't fit their ideology, or whatever.

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    Well, Scythian women had to kill a male enemy before they were allowed to marry and have children. These women were most likely the source of the Amazon women warrior.

    How much truth these stories hold I do not know.

    Even in these days women killers are rare and they mostly use non-violent methods.

    In a fight a woman has no chance against a warrior. Simply body strength makes her an inferior fighter, male testorerone are most likely lacking too.

    Simply imagine a UFC fight from a woman against a man. It won't work.

    I believe it is the idea of 'equalness' projected on the past.

    Women warriors, if they ever existed, don't threaten me. Do you think my knees are shaking now just by the idea thereof?

    To SpearBrave:

    Those are pre-Christian graves.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    This article is also very skeptical of the claim of a woman warrior

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2017...warrior-women/

    As the grave was uncovered in the 1880s and the bones stored in a bag the identification of the bones in recent times for DNA analyzes is dubious.

    The article as well gives a reason for the modern fascination of women warriors and also claims that it is highly unlikely that there ever was one.

    So, it is far from clear that this was a woman warrior nor is it suitable as evidence that there ever was one.

    It is an unproven claim based on the wishful thinking of modern ideology.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    The Sagas even mention the odd fighting Viking woman, and true, in harsh conditions it mightn't have been all that uncommon to happen. I just don't think that it was as widespread or commonplace as let's say the show Vikings would have us believe. And it's more likely that a woman of some societal standing would have the option to do so rather than a regular farmer's wife.

    I ask this: What difference would it make to us to learn that sometimes, women of our folk, in the past were found on the battlefield? None. It would neither take away the value of the male warrior who is both more suited to a fighting lifestyle and has generally been responsible for defence. Nor would it magically mean women were generally accepted as warriors or leaders. Even with the Celts, Boudicca was accepted to lead an army due to her standing, but she led virtually exclusively men into battle.

    Both the attempt to wishfully create a vision of the shield-maiden as a regular life-choice in pre-Christian Norse society and the attempt to refute at all costs that this might have possibly been a fighting woman of some standing are ridiculous if they're grounded chiefly not on what's actually there but on what we or others want to see, whether that's a cementation of traditional roles or a departure therefrom Neither is proven or disproven by a solitary skeleton.

    Fighting women in our societies have happened and do happen, but they have never been nor will ever be a rule rather than an exception.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    What proof is there for female warrior beside literary notes?

    This grave was supposed to be the first proof but it is dubious as well.

    As it was styled as the first proof, it implicates there is none.

    So all we have are opinions, either pro or contra.

    Nowadays there are women in combat situations and what I hear from Iraq is that they are more a ballast than a benefit.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    What proof is there for female warrior beside literary notes?
    Most of the Sagas show us at least a semi-correct portrayal of the history post-settlement. Literary notes are a good pointer for something to have existed at all. They're not good to judge how commonplace something was, because they have a tendency to exaggerate the extraordinary, but for mere existence of a phenomenon it may do.

    Nowadays there are women in combat situations and what I hear from Iraq is that they are more a ballast than a benefit.
    It is undoubted that a woman is ill-suited for at least modern-day infantry combat for a variety of reasons, whether it's attracting wild animals during that time of the month, breeding false heroism if in danger into male comrades, or being physically ill-equipped to carry a wounded full-laden comrade out of combat zone.

    This doesn't compare with earlier battle-scenes. Warbands in Northern Europe in the high medieval oft weren't much greater than platoons, evident physical disadvantages might have been lesser in a smaller type skirmish. In swordfighting, a skilled woman might have countered the smaller frame through greater agility, similar to how it's often really hard to brawl a midget.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Neither do you nor I know whether it was true.

    You rely on stories of the past I do on the physical inferiority of women.

    Weapons in medieval time and before needed strength, speed, tactic, courage and ferocity. I see women lacking in the most important features to fight a medieval fight.

    For a gun you just need to bend your index finger to unleash deadly power. That is why women soldiers are possible in modern time.

    It also seems that there were spiritual aspects of male warriordom like Bersekr training. They gained remarkable strength and ferocity. It is typically male based on masculinity.

    I assume that the strength of a warrior was enhanced by spiritual exercises based on a male spirit. I doubt a woman could ever have equal success with it.

    If women were daring enough to dabble into male warfare, they most likely were short lived.

    From another point of view:

    We do not know whether the old sagas were to be taken literally (for ex. like dragons) or symbolically. Whether dragons existed in the physical world (somehow their image must come from somewhere) or they are symbolically is a big question.

    Women in general stand for (refined) emotion, men in general stand for mind.

    Refined emotions can certainly beat thoughts from the mind, esp. If they are crude. In that sense 'women' warriors are certainly possible.

    We know from the bible that women/men are symbols. J. Made Maria Magdalena male because St. Peter complained about her presence. So the meaning is that refined emotions where transformed into noble thoughts.

    But I understand that most take the Sagas literally and then face problems of clearly non-physical creature and have to explain them without changing their 'literal' mode. Which is a double wammer for the literal take of medieval texts. (Christians bounce around with it per convenience as they most likely take Maria Magdalena's transformation spiritual but Jesus' death on the cross as literal. Compare that to Odins hanging on the Tree: literal or symbolical? And compare it to women warriors)

    Or otherwise one should have a clear method to distinguish what is meant literal and what is symbolical.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    You rely on stories of the past I do on the physical inferiority of women.
    I rely in the assumption that neither a Christian monk nor a literate medieval farmer might have had any particular cause to write fighting women into these Sagas merely to satisfy their own secret sexual fantasy. This is the 12th century, not the 21st century.

    Weapons in medieval time and before needed strength, speed, tactic, courage and ferocity. I see women lacking in the most important features to fight a medieval fight.
    A six-foot-tall butch-lesbian-type woman who lifts weights at the gym four times a week might be stronger and more ferocious than some five-foot-five wuss whose closest suitability for combat is that of a paper shield.

    If warrior women existed, then they probably weren't what we imagine today when we hear of the concept: They won't have run around in fantasy-type female armour bedecking little more than an ample bosom. In nine of ten cases, they'll have been more of the tomboy type, if not the butch type.

    That's not to say there isn't proof: During the first Tyrolean rebellions against the French in 1797 Katharina Lanz, a farmer girl, is reported to have ferociously fought at front-line for instance. Giuseppina Negrelli, the proven historical elder sister to Alois Negrelli (engineer of the Suez canal) did likewise during the 1809/10 uprising, and was quite central in it.

    But I understand that most take the Sagas literally [...] And compare it to women warriors)
    Again, does it really matter? I think we're both in agreement that trench warfare isn't a woman's place to be. This is not moved by the question of whether women warriors existed in the past, because it's impertinent to the moral judgment for today.

    Likewise, no self-respecting Greek army-man would advertise homosexuality, even less so with adolescent boys, as anything desirable or even acceptable, yet it is an established historical practice which was a central part of the Spartan warrior upbringing. :

    Or otherwise one should have a clear method to distinguish what is meant literal and what is symbolical.
    Little of which is meant symbolical doesn't have at least some grounding in reality, and if it is metaphorical.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  10. #20
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    What cause did your medieval monk or farmer have to write about non-existing Dragons?

    ...and I doubt that a five foot wuss would be a warrior.....

    ....and do you have any grounding into the reality of a dragon? (I mean a real one not a Hausdrachen)

    .....and do you have any grounding for trolls? (The historic ones, not the Internet ones)


    ........and do you have grounding for Giants? (I mean physical one, not metaphoric ones, as you assume they are based on reality)


    ......and do you have grounding for Odins shape shifting into a snake?


    From what I can take out of your post, you also do not have a system of what is symbol/metaphoric and what is real.

    You simply use the modern worldview that these things don't exist, therefore they are symbolical/metaphorical.

    This systems is a way of interpreting the old text with modern understanding, you won't be able to reliably interprete texts like this and claim what is meant real and what not.

    In contrast to take all texts as describing a reality you can interprete all texts as symbolical. (Your problem then is that your modern understanding will give symbols to certain keys which might be modern symbolic interpretation but may or may not have been meant by the original writer.)

    Then there is the possibility that the original writer describes reality but uses it to point to a symbolical meaning, enriching it with some fantastic elements

    Which then comes to the point where one has to have a system to distinguish what the original author considered real and what is part of his fantasy.

    To get back to the women warrior, we have no physical evidence that they were part of reality, nor do we have evidence that they are purely symbols and non-existent in (medieval) reality. (Your examples are likewise literal evidence which is from a different time period. If taken as real and seen in your mind as women who literally fought physical fights it only proofs it was possible around the year 1800 AD and we still don't know how much is fantasy and what is real)

    What is lacking is a method to distinguish both the real and the symbolical for medieval texts.

    ....and as I said, you don't seem to have a reliable system either.

    After all the Edda was about poetry, not reality.
    The sagas are as the word says 'sagas'. They claim to have a kernel in reality but obviously also big parts of fantasy, symbols, metaphoric elements.

    So, to look for evidence of women warriors, one can't really take the Edda as support, nor sagas.

    Only real physical evidence would do and that doesn't exist.

    A good argument is to test it against possible reality and that isn't much supportive to women warriors.

    Evidence from old writings isn't a good argument, as you can't proof that it isn't metaphorical or symbolical.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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