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Thread: Ancient Finno-Ugrians neither Mongoloid nor Caucasoid?

  1. #21
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    I have seen Central Asians that show significant blondism. There are even people near Mongolia with almost fully Mongoloid faces but with dark ashen hair and light or mixed eyes, which southeast Asian Mongoloids do not have. I would like to know if the majority of such individuals are the result of a mixture with Russian or other more ancient Central Asiatic Europid blondes. If not, are they simply derived from a partially blonde Central Asiatic Upper Paleolithic Mongoloid or semi-Mongoloid origin?

    "Within historic times the zone of frequent blondism stretched from north western Europe across the Russian steppes into central Asia where it touched China, but violent and rapid ethnic movements in Asia have nearly eliminated this eastern extension."

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-VIII5.htm

    Either the border between Europoid and Mongoloid have never been sharp in Central Asia and/or there are several branches of Mongoloid as there are of Europid. I guess that the Finno-Ugric people had a blondism from a Central Asiatic source and not through admixture with other Northeastern Europeans. It is important for us to know if that blonde source was an eastern extension of Europoid or western Mongoloid (but then one must prove there is Mongoloid blondism without Europid admixture) or that they were an early group of Euroasiatics that had not yet specialised into Europid and Mongolid.

    Another thing we must consider is that of environment, the colder northern climates and its effect on sexual maturity (puberty). Sebaceous glands become more sensitive to sex hormones. We see a late onset of puberty in Northern Europe. Maybe that was also true for Siberia and infantile characteristics in adulthood.

    Coon confirm it regarding Mongoloid when he wrote "At the same time mongoloid morphological characters are more pronounced in infantile hybrids than in the adults"

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-I2.htm

    The origin of Alpine traits might have been similar and could have begun with mass brachycephalization and delayed puberty which resulted in paedomorphism.

    There are even suggestions of a relation between body build and the onset of puberty. "There is a relation between age at puberty and body build. Early maturers tend to be broad-built pyknic (most "feminine" or "masculine"), while late maturers are of a more linear leptosomic (androgynous) build (Marchall & Tanner 1986)."

    http://www.neoteny.org/a/progenesispuberty.html

    "Mongoloid women accordingly tend to be more paedomorphic than women of other groups. Not only do women of Mongoloid origin present more prominent and rounded foreheads, but the bones of the whole skull, and, indeed, the whole skeleton, are more delicately made. Mongoloids generally tend to be shorter, and have larger heads, including larger brains --- 150 cc by volume greater, on the average, than Caucasoids. The face is flatter, the jaws and palate smaller, the nose smaller and flatter at the root (the miscalled "bridge"), and the slight fold of skin over the median part of the eye (the epicanthic fold) is preserved. The body is less hirsute, and there are fetal traits. One result of this is the high frequency of beauty among mongoloid males and females, a beauty of great delicacy (see Table I, page 21). The differential action of neoteny has produced some peculiar effects. For example, among the highly neotenized Japanese the males upper and lower jaws have been reduced in size while the teeth have not. The result has created a disharmony in many males in the form of extreme crowding and malocclusion of the teeth." (Montagu, Ashley (1989) Growing Young N.Y.: McGraw Hill pp. 40)

    http://www.humanevolution.net/a/asianoriental.html

    The comments regarding Mongoloid beauty can stand for himself. Ashley Montagu (Ehrenberg) was a Jew, not that alone change things. I'm just slightly suspicious of his theories. Franz Boaz also played down the role of racial plasiticty. They were both in favor of explanations from the environment. I don't think all the answers lie there. But I still find the text on Mongoloid neoteny interesting. I would like to know how much the environment has affected the development of race among Siberian populations that possessed some blondism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nordhammer
    Even tho they are mixed Mongoloids, they should still show significant blondism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by More Nerdish than Nordish
    I theorized this about 2 years ago when I said Ladogans/East Baltics/Uralics were neither Caucasoid, Mongoloid, nor a mix of the 2. :
    Your analysis begs the question: what are they then? The Lake Ladogo skull as referred to be Coon reminds me of Obercassel and so would be Caucasian inspite of what was said about it being Mongoloid.

    Since you seem to have a special interest in this area, do you have a picture of the Ladogo skull?

  3. #23
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    If blondism correlates with Tat-C and Siberians contain a lot of Tat-C then why aren't they significantly blond?
    My 'reasoning' never involved the induction of an absolute correlation between blondism and Tat-C, and I certainly didn't intend to imply that Siberian groups possessing higher amounts of Tat-C would experience higher rates of depigmentation when compared to those with lower frequencies of the marker.

    The mtDNA of Siberians is nearly exclusively Mongoloid with little Caucasoid influence. Conversely, although Caucasoid lineages (namely Tat-C/N3) are present on Siberian paternal lines, their distributions vary (for example, The Yakuts have 88.4% Tat-C; the Altaians have 1.0%). The presence of Tat-C among Siberians is likely attributed in many respects to the principles of genetic drift as well as the founder effect (hence abnormally high frequencies of Tat-C among populations such as the Yakuts and Buryats are in fact misleading when assessing the true genetic imprint left upon Siberians by Paleolithic North-Eastern Europeans).

    Therefore, blondism does not generally project itself among Siberians because:

    1) Mongoloid markers are, by sheer frequency, more numerous than Caucasoid markers among Siberians.
    2) Blondism is a trait manifested through the expression of recessive alleles.
    3) Such alleles associated with blondism, which are inherited through autosomes, may not be present in frequencies among Siberians that the numerical presence of Tat-C would otherwise suggest (relating back to the founder effect and genetic drift).

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    Are you presuming that Tat-C is a Paleolithic North-Eastern European marker?

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    Tore
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    Not presuming, but rather, formulating a case to which such an argument could have its premise upon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tore
    Not presuming, but rather, formulating a case to which such an argument could have its premise upon.
    This would indeed appear to be the case.
    http://www.white-history.com/finland.htm

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Fascinating.
    True. Fascinating BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simeon
    True. Fascinating BS.
    Don't be ashamed of our non-Caucasoid, non-Mongoloid heritage. :annoysigr

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