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Thread: Split: Cultural Nationalism vs Ethnonationalism

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    Split: Cultural Nationalism vs Ethnonationalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    The truth may hurt, but the answer to our problems does not lay in worshipping Hitler's ashes and awaiting a phoenix to rise from there. Neo-nazis are under the impression that the only things holding their Fourth Reich down are the Federal Republic and the Jews, who banned the nazis because they fear they could gain influence with the public, and prevent the "will of the folk". Well, it is not going to happen. We have neo-nazi parties in the USA, and they never got anywhere despite being around for a while. The reason is not that people have become more brainwashed, because Americans are now more concerned with their constitutional rights than before, but because neo-nazis plain and simple look ridiculous. Nationalism has evolved with the times, while neo-nazis remained stuck in the past. Let's be realistic, who in 2017 is going to take such people seriously?

    Agree, however even a moderate electorally palatable ethnic or cultural nationalism (voter friendly i.e. right-wing populist) is not applicable to US given its history and demography. The US is always going to be a melting-pot, with massive levels of immigration there; people of different ethnicities and cultures from all over the world will always be entering in large numbers each year. It would also be impossible for ethnic or cultural nationalism in the US to work since "White Americans" are a diverse mixture of ethnic/kin groups and cultures (English, Irish, Germans, Italians, Swedes etc.). I suppose this is why "white nationalism" as a pan-European ideology is mostly American based, but its completely toxic to voters (just look at the failure of individuals like David Duke). The vast majority of people will not vote for political parties that are based on the idea of a "white race". The only option for Americans is civic nationalism ("we welcome immigrants, but share our values", I guess - and isn't that what Trump champions? The best that can do is just keep some radical Muslims who oppose integration, from entering the US, hence Trump's temporary Muslim ban.

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    The ordinary public or voters don't distinguish "white supremacism", "white nationalism" and "Neo-Nazism". So its foolish to come up with weird sounding neologisms, e.g. the "Alt-Right", "identitarian", "race realist" and so on.

    As for ethnic nationalism, it has slightly more electoral appeal than white nationalism (hence the modest success of the British National Party up to about 2011), but it is still perceived to the public as abrasive and threatening since it is not considered inclusive enough (it is thought to promote division and xenophobia, "us vs. them" mentality); ethnic nationalist parties also suffer from an image problem (and they often attract a minority of the wrong type of people, e.g. football hooligans). For example a study found during the heyday of the the BNP (2006-2009), they were reaching only a fraction of their electoral potential: 22% of registered voters in UK agreed with BNP policies, but only 4% would vote for them (this study was by Dr. Robert Ford in 2009).

    A relatively moderate ethnic nationalist party can therefore only go so far, sadly. I know this because (although not a member), I was part of the BNP's local electioneering campaigns when they were electing councillors back in the 2000s. What I told the BNP in 2010 was their electoral strategy had extreme limitations and I predicted their collapse (this happened shortly after): the reason is they were only targeting ethnic English voters by looking at surnames on electoral registers with street addresses. So-called ethnic minorities (a misnomer because they are becoming the majority in many English cities!) they never even leafleted or canvassed, thus loosing thousands of potential voters. This was particularly noticeable in London where Nick Griffin stood. London's demographics show ethnic English voters are a minority, so its foolish to only target them for votes, especially in inner boroughs where they are like only 20-30% of the population.

    Its clear to me that ethnic nationalism is not the way forward politically, but cultural nationalism; this is 100% electorally palatable and has popular appeal and no image problem. Cultural nationalism is inclusive since ethnic minorities can adopt English (or British) culture. When I told the BNP to moderate itself and transform into a cultural nationalist party, I got called a "sell out". However, a cultural nationalist party can still obviously oppose mass-immigration, so I never saw the problem. After all, its a numbers game, is it not? I would just like to see the ethnic English remain a majority in their own country and there's no reason to reject ethnic minorities who adopt English culture and are also concerned about immigration.

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    Senior Member The Aesthete's Avatar
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    Sounds like you want the BNP to become UKIP.

    The likely outcome of what you’re advocating is encultured immigrants usurping such parties as the BNP and a likely softening of attitudes to mass immigration within these parties. It would likely tear these parties up from the inside as the interests of the ethnic English often differ from those of the encultured immigrants.

    This forum has a history of blokes married to Asian or Indian women coming on here telling us that ethnic nationalism is doomed to failure and cultural nationalism is the way forward. I don’t think it is because an England without the ethnic English; who created that culture and whom the country is named after; is no longer England.
    Our beauty is our power, our strength. We can’t allow them to change us, to lessen us. I will never grant them that satisfaction, and neither should you!

    White Oleander

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Aesthete View Post
    Sounds like you want the BNP to become UKIP.

    The likely outcome of what you’re advocating is encultured immigrants usurping such parties as the BNP and a likely softening of attitudes to mass immigration within these parties. It would likely tear these parties up from the inside as the interests of the ethnic English often differ from those of the encultured immigrants.

    This forum has a history of blokes married to Asian or Indian women coming on here telling us that ethnic nationalism is doomed to failure and cultural nationalism is the way forward. I don’t think it is because an England without the ethnic English; who created that culture and whom the country is named after; is no longer England.
    The problem is people like you who make these statements have no electioneering experience. I know for a fact ethnic nationalism is going nowhere, having canvassed and leafleted for years, meeting the public and understanding what ordinary voters care about: it isn't ethnicity. Also people don't vote against mass immigration because of ethnicity, and certainly not race. Its based mostly on the anxiety and concerns people have about overpopulation and the pressure too many people put on public services such as public transport and health-care, as well as some concerns about the erosion of national identity and culture. However these things to do pertain to ancestry in the public's mind; we have to accept ethnically conscious people are like 0.1% of the population, we're the extreme minority and the people we have to reach are the public who do not think in terms of ancestry, ethnicity, race, genes and so on.

    By all means continue supporting ethnic nationalism, but there are no ethnic nationalist parties making progress, so its pointless. The current state of the BNP is less than 100 members and it barely functions as a political party, this contrasts to 12000 members back in the mid-late 2000s and active branches all over the country. Since 2012, 2/3 of former BNP voters switched to UKIP, its not a question whether I want the BNP to morph into UKIP anymore; UKIP has replaced the BNP. After it was clear to me the BNP had collapsed (around 2011) I dropped out of politics for a couple of years until I briefly supported the English Democrats. After realising they were going nowhere, I've supported UKIP since the 2015 General Election, when UKIP got nearly 4 million votes- showing there is much potential for a cultural nationalist party.

    So back to the specific thread topic: in my view its not enough to just distance yourself from Neo-Nazism if you're an ethnic conscious person (i.e. a preservationist), you have to abandon ethnic nationalism too. Completely ditch any baggage, and those on the left can no longer even really attack you because cultural nationalism is multi-ethnic. As I explained in my above post: I don't want to see the ethnic English become a minority in England, what I'm saying is we have to be clever and adopt a strategy to actually take power. The only way to take power is through the ballot box. A cultural nationalist party still of course is anti mass immigration; its a vote winner because immigration has a negative impact on settled immigrants themselves.

    Article: Every ethnic group in Britain wants to cut immigration:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...g-country.html

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    The public doesn't distinguish between Neo-Nazism/liking Hitler to white nationalism. So there's not much point in saying "Hey, I'm a white nationalist who doesn't like Hitler". There is only one way to avoid being demonised by ordinary people as a Neo-Nazi: drop white (and/or ethnic) nationalism, for cultural nationalism. There is no "sell-out" here, since you can still oppose mass immigration to maintain native ethnic groups remaining the majority in their own countries.

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    Sees all, knows all Chlodovech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panchaea View Post
    Also people don't vote against mass immigration because of ethnicity, and certainly not race. Its based mostly on the anxiety and concerns people have about overpopulation and the pressure too many people put on public services such as public transport and health-care, as well as some concerns about the erosion of national identity and culture.
    You make a few good points, and because of UKIP's brief, former success (which is rather modest when compared to the success of similar parties throughout Europe in the last two decades) and the Brexit you can be forgiven for thinking that cultural nationalism would actually benefit English people in the long run. But you're seriously underestimating the appeal of ethnonationalism, resistance to mass migration is not just about money and the spread of islam(ism) - people are fundamentally "irrational" when it comes to the big questions of life and politics - according to this article, 40% of Anglo-Americans say their ethnic identity is very or extremely important and "54% said that whites have a lot or a great deal to be proud of, and 43% reported that whites in this country have a lot or a great deal in common with one another".

    In the age group of 20-30 year olds, almost 20% (!) of young Anglo-Americans support the alt-right. That's not a small figure and it can and will grow, especially because of polarized American politics and young people becoming more rightwing as they mature. 20% is something one can work with. So it's important to make a distinction between generations, generation Z is the most socially conservative generation since the Silents. And they're not the largely apathetic people you were leafleting for.

    In Europe the sense of being physically replaced is not to be underestimated, people are catching on to that, unlike 10 years ago - many people are in the know now. An ethnic nationalist reflex - or at least race realism - is often experienced by apolitical or rather leftist people on a very personal and instinctual level in day to day life as well, when they avoid certain areas of town or look behind their back when passing by a crowd of migrants. Deep down, common people know they're more "racist" than they would admit to in polite society.

    To me the problem is: how to get all these people who would support ethnonationalist policies to actually support an ethnonationalist movement or party? What will bring them to do that? Because it is true that none of the existing initiatives are able to persuade these citizens - people who could vote for at least a cultural nationalist party largely refrain from doing so - yes, it has to do with the power of the media and the WW2 legacy/the association with historical fascism or at least the narrative of the victors, if you will. And the left controlling all of the institutions.

    Cultural/civic nationalism - detaching culture from the nation which created it - is a mistake though. Our nations have zero objective interest in being replaced by English speaking Africans and Asians, even if they have a job and no criminal record - when they're properly westernized atheist hedonists - whatever England will become with an "integrated" migrant population (I put integrated between quotation marks since integration clearly hasn't worked in the U.S. and the U.S. prides itself on being good at integration), it will not be England anymore. I'm not interested in a post-Flemish Flanders either. Cultural nationalism is largely controlled opposition and part of the problem. Cultural nationalists are full of fear for their opponents and tend to support decadence (such as feminism/homo and gender ideology) to work on their progressive credentials - they don't gain from it and the leftist media still go hard on them because they sense weakness. And I can imagine many leftists eventually supporting a cultural nationalist party, precisely because cultural nationalism is pointless and promotes integration (like the left does, but simply with different means) - which boils down to ethnic suicide for the West. If you really want to, one could even call Obama a civic nationalist, civic nationalism is about diversity and globalism after all, not about nationalism.

    Also: cultural nationalists experience similar problems as ethnonationalists - they're also branded nazis - and they too have no clue as to how to get the massive amount of people who reject mass migration and political correctness to vote for them. It's probably hopeless as long as the left enjoys full spectrum dominance in the cultural field. And the left would eventually crack down on dissident media and cultural events which grow too powerful, as we see currently happening on the internet, not in the least on YouTube and Twitter.

    I know this: the moment you apologize for ethnonationalism, you have lost. And cultural nationalists do that all the time. They even apologize for their cultural nationalism, watering that ideology down too. Never apologize to the enemies of your nation - they're not going to change their attitude towards you. And why should they, they have all the power.
    "If we were going to stand in darkness, best we stand in a darkness we had made ourselves.” ― Douglas Coupland, Shampoo Planet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    But you're seriously underestimating the appeal of ethnonationalism, resistance to mass migration is not just about money and the spread of islam(ism) - people are fundamentally "irrational" when it comes to the big questions of life and politics - according to this article, 40% of Anglo-Americans say their ethnic identity is very or extremely important and "54% said that whites have a lot or a great deal to be proud of, and 43% reported that whites in this country have a lot or a great deal in common with one another".
    OK, but I don't think there's a strong correlation between those statistics and people opposing immigration based on ethnicity/race. From the data I've seen for UK (Ipsos MORI's Social Research Institute ["Public Attitudes to Immigration"]
    and Migration Watch): the vast majority of people who oppose mass-immigration do so because of the negative impacts it has on public services (e.g. transport like trains have become too overcrowded), and competition for jobs. There are some cultural concerns, but most people are more concerned with the former two, overcrowding and economy. I guess the cultural concerns are based on things like parents being fed up with sending their children to schools with dozens of different languages spoken in the classroom; some state schools in England now have English as a secondary language (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...-language.html).

    Reasons given for why the number of immigrants coming to Britain should be reduced and % of support for these reasons, based on Citizenship Survey (2011):

    * 37% (Job competition, i.e. immigrants are taking jobs from British people)
    * 35% (immigration causes overcrowding/pressure on public services)
    * 16% (there's a housing shortage; immigrants are taking homes that should go the British people first)
    * 8% (immigrants abuse welfare system)
    * 3% (The country is losing its national identity - it needs to maintain British culture and customs)

    Ethnicity doesn't really come into it; "national identity" in most people's minds will be cultural, rather than ancestry.

    And this is precisely where many of the new breed of right wing populist parties go wrong trying to win votes by trying to warn about Islam. Even UKIP has supported this wrong approach. Most voters don't care about Islam: they aren't affected by it personally since they don't go in a mosque. What they are though concerned about is public transport being overcrowded because that delays or prevents them getting into and back from work. Voters only care about what personally affects them. That is what we have to tap into.

    What is remarkable is the high % of British public who want immigration reduced. According to the 2014 British Social Attitudes Survey, 77% want to see immigration levels reduced, of those, 56% want to see it reduced "a lot", while 21% wanting to see it reduced "a little". In other words most people (more than half) want to see immigration levels massively cut, i.e. at least zero net-immigration (meaning a reduction of 300,000 immigrants every year.)

    But if 56% of British public want to massively reduce immigration, why have nationalist/right-wing populist parties only obtained a small fraction of these voters? UKIP has done far better than the BNP, but even so, UKIP at their height only secured 13% of the total vote at the 2015 General Election, getting just a single candidate elected.

    My answer to this is that UKIP needs to modernise more, have a re-brand (Brexit means the "independence" in the name is no longer relevant) and drop the Islam obsession, instead focusing on the problems mass-immigration causes on public transport. I encounter this since I part-time work in London and have to use the trains- people are packed on the transport like sardines and its a horrible experience.

    To me the problem is: how to get all these people who would support ethnonationalist policies to actually support an ethnonationalist movement or party? What will bring them to do that? Because it is true that none of the existing initiatives are able to persuade these citizens - people who could vote for at least a cultural nationalist party largely refrain from doing so - yes, it has to do with the power of the media and the WW2 legacy/the association with historical fascism or at least the narrative of the victors, if you will. And the left controlling all of the institutions.

    Cultural/civic nationalism - detaching culture from the nation which created it - is a mistake though. Our nations have zero objective interest in being replaced by English speaking Africans and Asians, even if they have a job and no criminal record - when they're properly westernized atheist hedonists - whatever England will become with an "integrated" migrant population (I put integrated between quotation marks since integration clearly hasn't worked in the U.S. and the U.S. prides itself on being good at integration), it will not be England anymore. I'm not interested in a post-Flemish Flanders either. Cultural nationalism is largely controlled opposition and part of the problem. Cultural nationalists are full of fear for their opponents and tend to support decadence (such as feminism/homo and gender ideology) to work on their progressive credentials - they don't gain from it and the leftist media still go hard on them because they sense weakness. And I can imagine many leftists eventually supporting a cultural nationalist party, precisely because cultural nationalism is pointless and promotes integration (like the left does, but simply with different means) - which boils down to ethnic suicide for the West. If you really want to, one could even call Obama a civic nationalist, civic nationalism is about diversity and globalism after all, not about nationalism.

    Also: cultural nationalists experience similar problems as ethnonationalists - they're also branded nazis - and they too have no clue as to how to get the massive amount of people who reject mass migration and political correctness to vote for them. It's probably hopeless as long as the left enjoys full spectrum dominance in the cultural field. And the left would eventually crack down on dissident media and cultural events which grow too powerful, as we see currently happening on the internet, not in the least on YouTube and Twitter.

    I know this: the moment you apologize for ethnonationalism, you have lost. And cultural nationalists do that all the time. They even apologize for their cultural nationalism, watering that ideology down too. Never apologize to the enemies of your nation - they're not going to change their attitude towards you. And why should they, they have all the power.
    I disagree since cultural nationalist parties still oppose mass-immigration. So they're the best chance we have of reducing immigration since they're 100% electorally palatable (not considered extreme to voters). I don't really see cultural nationalism being able to be smeared as Nazis, certainly that has never happened to UKIP.

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    I think the only think the only thing now that would work against the fascist left and their war/debt/propaganda controllers is to form something that fights on all fronts.

    Perhaps Universal Nationalism? Which would be something for all countries willing to preserve their heritage and kick out the merchants of debt/war/famine. Aka: Reserve Banks. Doesn't matter what your skin colour or leanings are, the number one thing to fixing 'who controls the government' is to remove the foreign powers that extort it.

    The 'Republic of Kekistan' is one such instance of common allegiance, if only humourous, but it does illustrate unity of goals.

    By the way, Germanic people don't naturally form into WW2 brigade wearing super-Adolf supporters. They only do so when their wrong buttons are pushed, same with everybody. So for those that criticize them to no end, what do you think pushed them that far? Right wingers are known only to 'push-back' when intimidated. Left wingers are known to be aggressive morons who bark at anything due to '''cultivated''' Hitler-phobia.

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    Senior Member The Aesthete's Avatar
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    In fighting in the BNP and the smear campaign by mainstream media are what really killed the BNP, not a rejection of ethnic nationalism.

    I disagree about abandoning ethnic nationalism to avoid attacks from the left, they decried UKIP as racist, bigoted and xenophobic as well.

    Things like white flight in Britain seem to gainsay your argument that ethnicity is not a issue.
    Our beauty is our power, our strength. We can’t allow them to change us, to lessen us. I will never grant them that satisfaction, and neither should you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Aesthete View Post
    In fighting in the BNP and the smear campaign by mainstream media are what really killed the BNP, not a rejection of ethnic nationalism.
    One question somewhat off topic: why is any nationalist party always, inevitably "killed" by in-fighting? Whereas the system parties are never ever killed by their extensive in-fighting?

    Yet this leads back to the topic: could it be -- at least in part -- that Hitler is just envied by so many small wannabes? Because he successfully built up a movement and managed that it would not get killed by in-fighting?

    Of course, this is not the main reason why our forum friend opened this thread, yet I am sure it is a major side reason.

    Hitler, among many other things, once said in front of journalists: "Besides, leader can always [at any given time] only be one."

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