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Thread: U.S. Launches Missiles at Syrian Base

  1. #51
    This is not a black and white case. Pentagon documents have revealed how support for so called rebels is actually the result of the intention to destabilize a country for example. The killing that follows is not an accident here. And in the Iraq case for example - it's not just about Syria, like you're now trying to frame it, you were talking about dictators in general - the US went to war. On purpose. That means you will kill people, including civilians; that's not merely accidental.
    On the other hand, the goal of Assad's war is not to kill civilians, but to win. His morals might be questionable, but he is trying to win a war and any killing of civilians is in this case either collateral or at worst a means towards an end.
    The problem with civilians dying in a war is that they stand in the way of what you're trying to achieve. The concept of intentionality looses its purpose. Morality is degraded to the 'amount of f*cks given' about their lives. Both the US and Assad have to make choices in which they weigh the consequences for civilians against the amount of success they will gain to reach their political goal.

    Of course it makes those actions less "problematic". I don't see much at all that is "problematic" (what a ridiculous word) about accidentally killing 3 soldiers of a regime in that is in act of gassing civilians to death. Are you a pacifist now Bernard?
    Those three soldiers is not what I was referring to and you damn well know it.
    And please excuse my poor choice of words in my third language...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    Not necessarily. But challenging a dictator in order to deter him from the worst of his excesses seems reasonable to me.
    So when chaos follows, a well intended 'oops' is enough to justify for it, even if you do it over and over again?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    It must be remembered as well that there are different levels of instability. There is instability within a country and then there is instability within a region. A Russia controlled Syria and an Iran controlled Iraq for instance would tend to distabilse the middle east. That is something I would not like to see happen for obvious reasons.
    It seems rather that everything that is happening in the Middle East is the result of an intentional destabilization caused by the US. Even the rebels in Syria complained that Obama gave them just enough support to stay alive, but not enough to win.
    And even following your position, the danger for a situation like you describe was never as big as it has become after US intervention by going to war in Iraq and supporting terrorists in Syria.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    Because gassing civilians to death with nerve agents is only "superficially" evil. Yeah...
    You've completely failed to understand my point. It was about your position not taking into account the levels of 'evil' that can be achieved by other means. That's where you're superficial, because you reduce the entire situation to a black and white opposition between 'vicious dictators versus just wars'. A just war can be even more vicious, dixit Carl Schmitt.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    Orly? What political strategy am I ignorant of that you are privy to? Pray tell.
    How about the entire american tradition of geostrategy of, let's say, the last 100 years?


    Quote Originally Posted by Roybatty
    Pretty much any bomb is a chemical weapon. Whether it maims and kills you fast or slow, poisons you or blows you apart, what's the difference? Being mowed down by some aggressor's weapons, no matter what they use is still a nasty way to go.
    This is a good point. The reason we are so horrified by the images of children choking on gas, is because it is actually less horrifying than what happens usually. We can be horrified because we see these images on the news. We don't even get the chance to be horrified by what happens usually, because the images of children torn to pieces, by legal bombs, are too harsh to show.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    Really? If the famine was so bad then how come only 65,000 North Vietnamese civilians died from all causes during the entire course of the Vietnam war? A war that killed about 2 million people in total?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War


    In any case, destroying crops in order to deprive the enemy in the field of supplies it is not the moral equivalent of directing nerve gas against civilians. Sorry.
    This is becoming more and more ridiculous. First you introduce morality and intention as a way to discriminate between different types of killing and all of a sudden it's the relative amount of casualities that determines how bad it is.

    Anyway, this discussion isn't going anywhere when you present yourself as the ultimate judge of moral standards.

    Edit: your numbers are also misleading. The worst case was in a single area in South Vietnam and in a single year: a number of deaths aren't given, but over 300 000 anual diets (for civilians) were destroyed. And even comparing these numbers with the total casualties in a larger area and over a longer stretch of time is simply a misuse of statistics.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    It has been calculated by international studies that Agent orange exposure increases lifetime cancer risk by around 1.5 times.
    It is not cancer we are talking about here, but severe malformations developed in the womb, which is still happening to this day.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    That is far, far less that the risk of death from sarin gas, a substance with will probably kill you outright within minutes, even if only absorbed through the skin.
    A sweet release, compared to permanently altering one's genetic material to cause irreparable harm to future unborn generations.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    It was not known how dangerous agent orange was at the time it was being used and it was not used with the intention to kill people.
    Using millions of civilians as human guinea pigs is quite morally defunct, as well. Anyway, one of the main objectives of the use of agent orange was to destroy farmland, effectively starving the population, so there's that, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Using millions of civilians as human guinea pigs is quite morally defunct, as well. Anyway, one of the main objectives of the use of agent orange was to destroy farmland, effectively starving the population, so there's that, too.
    I'm not for use of chemicals, the fact is agent orange was not used to destroy farming or agriculture lands. It was used on dense forested areas to reduce the hiding places for the Vietcong. Most people do not know that it was also used in Canada and Brazil to clear land for farming, they did not know the side effects until much later. True it was very careless but I don't think there was an intent or known harm at the time.

    One of the chemicals used in agent orange is 2 4 D and it is fairly safe considering* and is very widely used in the farming industry world wide.

    * there are no "safe" chemicals imho
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    Anyone know the effects of the use of depleted uranium warheads by the US in places like Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    I'm not for use of chemicals, the fact is agent orange was not used to destroy farming or agriculture lands. It was used on dense forested areas to reduce the hiding places for the Vietcong.
    Some historians seem to differ:
    - "In 1965, 42 percent of all herbicide spraying was dedicated to food crops."
    - "In South Vietnam alone, an estimated 10 million hectares of agricultural land was ultimately destroyed."


    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    Most people do not know that it was also used in Canada and Brazil to clear land for farming, they did not know the side effects until much later. True it was very careless but I don't think there was an intent or known harm at the time.
    Sure, but Canada and Brazil are some of the most sparsely populated countries on Earth. Vietnam was heavily and evenly populated. That such heavy spraying would affect large parts of the civilian population, was a given.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    One of the chemicals used in agent orange is 2 4 D and it is fairly safe considering* and is very widely used in the farming industry world wide.
    2,4,5-T seem to be the most toxic of the two components of agent orange.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    It is not cancer we are talking about here, but severe malformations developed in the womb, which is still happening to this day.
    Birth defects occur in every country to a greater or lesser extent. The incidence of birth defects in vietnam is not particularly high. It's about average for the world, with a rate of 55.1 birth defects per thousand births. By comparison Ireland is at 53 defects per 1000 births. And as I say there was no agent orange used in Ireland. See the pdf map I have attached which lists the rate of birth defects by country. Vietnam sits right in the middle.

    Chart of Birth defects by country.

    So I think that the damage done by agent orange, while a statistically real effect, could easily be blown out of proportion especially when comparing to something as deadly a sarin gas.


    As for my not talking about cancer instead of birth defects, well agent orange has been accused of causing cancer as well and you posted pictures of some people with tumours so that is why I discussed cancer. Because, if I am not mistaken the woman in the second photo you posted is suffering from a condition called "neurofibroma", a form of usually non-malignant tumour. Here is another even more severe example;



    This mans name is Xu Yanlin. He's chinese not Vietnamese there is no mention of him or his family being exposed to agent orange.


    As I say, I have seen people in Ireland with this condition, albeit milder cases. Joseph Merek "the elephant man" suffered from this over 100 years ago. It is not necessarily caused by exposure to chemical contaminants. It occurs in every country.

    The baby is clearly suffering from some type of cancer as well. Again cancer in infants occurs in every population. The boy in the first picture appears to have from some type of lesions on his skin, possibly cancer as well.

    The point here though, is that it isn't enough to simply show some pictures of deformed people from Vietnam in order to claim that agent orange caused their conditions. It might have or, alternatively they might have developed those conditions with or without exposure to agent orange...

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    A sweet release, compared to permanently altering one's genetic material to cause irreparable harm to future unborn generations.
    As I've shown you Vietnam's incidence of birth defects is not particularly elevated compared to the rest of the world, so if I were you I'd take my chances with the agent orange over the sarin.

    Sarin, if you get a half-decent whiff of it will choke you to death where you stand, every time. Whereas agent orange has maybe a 5 in 1000 chance of causing a birth defect in a descendent of yours. That is rather small when compared to the roughly 50 in 1000 chance of a birth defect you already have as a background level.

    Between sarin and agent orange I certainly know which I'd rather have to deal with, and it ain't the sarin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Using millions of civilians as human guinea pigs is quite morally defunct, as well. Anyway, one of the main objectives of the use of agent orange was to destroy farmland, effectively starving the population, so there's that, too.
    They weren't even aware they were using the Vietnamese as guinea pigs. All the indications at the time were that agent orange was a safe chemical for humans!

    As for destroying crops I don't believe the intention was ever to starve the population to death but only to make it more difficult for the Viet Cong to operate in the field by denying them resources.

    If it was the U.S intention to starve the north Vietnamese civilians it wasn't very effective as relatively very few died (65,000 total) from all causes not just starvation in the 20 years the war lasted. That is out of a North Vietnamese population of around 20 million. If the U.S had wanted to starve the North Vietnamese to death I really think they could have done a much more effective job of it, don't you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyBatty View Post
    The US indiscriminately poisoned swathes of Vietnam with Agent Orange and god knows what else.
    Red commies in Soviet Russia weren't much better.
    'Militia est vita hominis super terram [The life of man upon earth is a warfare] (Job 7:1).'

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    Lol! I'll tell you what. I'll let you spray me with agent orange if you let me spray you with sarin gas. Have we got a deal!!
    I'm not the one peddling fantasies about the "safety" of horrendous chemical agents. You are. So why would I want to be exposed to something I know and already clearly stated is inherently unsafe? You're the one claiming AO is near harmless.

    Put your money where your mouth is or be a cowardly fiction peddlar. Simple choice.


    No not really. Certain weapons such as nerve gas are banned by the Geneva convention for being particularly horrible methods to kill people. Being blown to bits is at least quick. Having your lungs collapse not so much. There are few things more terrifying than dying from respiratory failure.

    There isn't a nice way to murder people.

    Unfortunately entire generations of video-game playing idiots are growing up thinking that war is just some extended simulation of life without consequences. Being blown up doesn't necessarily result in a quick, clean death either. It very often results in loss of limbs and grievous body injuries. Nothing nice and clean about it at all, so kindly stop pretending that it does.

    And if you're truly so outraged and concerned about how "agonizing it is to die from respiratory failure", that time honoured US tradition of torturing people through water-boarding should outrage a fragile little flower such as yourself, yet you're quite schtumm about it. The Geneva convention (which you so conveniently cite) addresses torture as well, yet amazingly you forget to address that point.

    The facts are that the US has and continues to use chemical agents in warfare against regions and countries which did it no harm whatsoever, with dire consequences for civilians in those countries. Their actions have nothing - zilch - to do with defending the USA. It's about brutalising and destroying those countries and civilisations for Wall Street Profits, the out of control military machine and the Internationalist, Global cabal of financiers and industrialists who are all involved in this racket.

    It is a global racket, with many stakeholders from around the world. The US is their tool of choice.

    So stop pretending that you care about it - because you're here inventing fantasy excuses for the Globalist & US Murder machine.

    PS - Other countries aren't morally any better than the US in these regards. The difference is simply in the scale and magnitude of the USA's operations, and in the fact that the US is by far the most active global terrorist.

    It is utterly ridiculous that you have the audacity to come here and spread obvious lies and propaganda in favour of the Internationalist (because that is what it really is) Murder Machine and invent excuses for them, and portray them as moral beings. They're not.

    A spade is a spade. War is hell. Those who export wars around the world are terrorists.
    ~ **** Democracy! It's 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding what's for dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Red commies in Soviet Russia weren't much better.
    Everybody has dirty hands, but for the last number of decades it's become increasingly one way traffic.
    ~ **** Democracy! It's 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding what's for dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasa View Post
    Anyone know the effects of the use of depleted uranium warheads by the US in places like Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan?
    If indeed there is a link between DU ammunition and radiation related illnesses, you can be sure that it will never be admitted to.

    Of course, those who profit financially and politically from the use of such ammunition will take great care not to expose themselves to it.
    ~ **** Democracy! It's 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding what's for dinner.

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