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Thread: U.S. Launches Missiles at Syrian Base

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    It was years before its carcinogenic effects on humans became known.

    So to try to compare agent orange with sarin gas is ludicrous!
    Indeed. I'd take a hit of sarin any day over this:





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    Don't worry, it's 4D chess/8D monopoly.

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    OK reading through this thread and following the media I have some comments to make from an American perspective. While I most certainly do not represent most American's thoughts on this I have to say somethings.

    I am a veteran of the US armed forces, I swore an oath to protect and defend The United States and the Untied States Constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic. Upon discharge of the US Armed services you are not released from this oath.

    Given my above statements, I see nowhere in our Constitution that says the United States government is to be the world's police force. I do not see Syria or Russia as an immediate or direct threat to the security or the "freedoms" of the United State and it's people. I am very tired of war and war mongering. These problems would be solved if those making these decisions were the ones getting shot at or losing their friends and family members. I am not some "peace loving hippy" or "anti war leftist", but I really think it is 150 years past time that the US and other countries should mind their own business and stay out of foreign affairs like this. As a American I am tired of fighting wars on the behalf of the jews and other slime that run this would from their shadow world were they do not suffer from the acts they commit. War may at times be necessary, but war also leaves scars that will not heal on those who fight in them.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    This idea that is being put about by some on this forum that the U.S as just as callous an actor in the world as the worlds most vicious dictators is utterly ridiculous and betrays a severe gap in objectivity.
    You have the same type of reasoning as liberals do. As long as the (proclaimed) 'intentions are good', you're actions are good as well. Hiding behind the actions of 'evil dictators' doesn't make the negative consequenses of your own actions any less problematic. Is creating a situation of chaos resulting in so many losses of human lives okay, as long as you've removed a dictator, because he was a dictator? Your view of what is evil is extremely superficial. Not to mention the ignorance on political strategy you display in buying every example of moralistic justification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Indeed. I'd take a hit of sarin any day over this:
    ...
    Then you would be making a terrible and likely fatal mistake.

    It has been calculated by international studies that Agent orange exposure increases lifetime cancer risk by around 1.5 times. That is far, far less that the risk of death from sarin gas, a substance with will probably kill you outright within minutes, even if only absorbed through the skin.

    Those images are horrible to be sure but statistically, many of those people would have developed these cancers whether they had been exposed to agent orange or not. I have seen people in Ireland walking around with facial tumors as displayed by the woman in the second picture and there was no agent orange used here... It may well be that in Vietnam whenever anyone develops a rare cancer, agent orange gets the blame.

    In 2006, Anh Duc Ngo and colleagues of the University of Texas Health Science Center published a meta-analysis that exposed a large amount of heterogeneity (different findings) between studies, a finding consistent with a lack of consensus on the issue.[47] Despite this, statistical analysis of the studies they examined resulted in data that the increase in birth defects/relative risk (RR) from exposure to agent orange/dioxin "appears" to be on the order of 3 in Vietnamese funded studies but 1.29 in the rest of the world. With a casual relationship near the threshold of statistical significance in still-births, cleft palate, and neural tube defects, with spina bifida being the most statistically significant defect.[48] The large discrepancy in RR between Vietnamese studies and those in the rest of the world has been ascribed to bias in the Vietnamese studies.[47]

    Wiki
    Anyway even if Agent orange caused cancer and birth defects in 100% of the people exposed, (which all the evidence suggests it doesn't, the rate is nothing like that) it would still not be the moral equivalent of using Sarin gas for the following reason; It was not known how dangerous agent orange was at the time it was being used and it was not used with the intention to kill people.

    That is the fundamental moral difference between using agent orange and sarin gas.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    Anyway even if Agent orange caused cancer and birth defects in 100% of the people exposed, (which all the evidence suggests it doesn't, the rate is nothing like that) it would still not be the moral equivalent of using Sarin gas for the following reason; It was not known how dangerous agent orange was at the time it was being used and it was not used with the intention to kill people.

    That is the fundamental moral difference between using agent orange and sarin gas.
    You conveniently ignore that it was used to intentionally spray crops and caused a famine and wide spread malnourishment. It's discussed in the wiki you quoted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
    You have the same type of reasoning as liberals do. As long as the (proclaimed) 'intentions are good', you're actions are good as well.
    No, that is a misrepresentation of my position. Killing someone by accident is not good, granted But it is simply not the moral equivalent of killing them intentionally. To try to argue the contrary is obtuse.

    Hiding behind the actions of 'evil dictators' doesn't make the negative consequenses of your own actions any less problematic.
    Of course it makes those actions less "problematic". I don't see much at all that is "problematic" (what a ridiculous word) about accidentally killing 3 soldiers of a regime in that is in act of gassing civilians to death. Are you a pacifist now Bernard?

    Is creating a situation of chaos resulting in so many losses of human lives okay, as long as you've removed a dictator, because he was a dictator?
    Not necessarily. But challenging a dictator in order to deter him from the worst of his excesses seems reasonable to me.

    It must be remembered as well that there are different levels of instability. There is instability within a country and then there is instability within a region. A Russia controlled Syria and an Iran controlled Iraq for instance would tend to distabilse the middle east. That is something I would not like to see happen for obvious reasons.


    Your view of what is evil is extremely superficial.
    Because gassing civilians to death with nerve agents is only "superficially" evil. Yeah...


    Not to mention the ignorance on political strategy you display in buying every example of moralistic justification.
    Orly? What political strategy am I ignorant of that you are privy to? Pray tell.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    Then you would be making a terrible and likely fatal mistake.

    It has been calculated by international studies that Agent orange exposure increases lifetime cancer risk by around 1.5 times. That is far, far less that the risk of death from sarin gas, a substance with will probably kill you outright within minutes, even if only absorbed through the skin.

    Put your money where your mouth is. If it's as safe and harmless as you claim why don't you go chug a bottle of the stuff and then come and report back the results here.

    Fact is you're being boringly disingenuous, and not for the first time.

    Pretty much any bomb is a chemical weapon. Whether it maims and kills you fast or slow, poisons you or blows you apart, what's the difference? Being mowed down by some aggressor's weapons, no matter what they use is still a nasty way to go.
    ~ **** Democracy! It's 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding what's for dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
    You conveniently ignore that it was used to intentionally spray crops and caused a famine and wide spread malnourishment. It's discussed in the wiki you quoted.
    Really? If the famine was so bad then how come only 65,000 North Vietnamese civilians died from all causes during the entire course of the Vietnam war? A war that killed about 2 million people in total?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War


    In any case, destroying crops in order to deprive the enemy in the field of supplies it is not the moral equivalent of directing nerve gas against civilians. Sorry.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyBatty View Post
    Put your money where your mouth is. If it's as safe and harmless as you claim why don't you go chug a bottle of the stuff and then come and report back the results here.
    Lol! I'll tell you what. I'll let you spray me with agent orange if you let me spray you with sarin gas. Have we got a deal!!

    Fact is you're being boringly disingenuous, and not for the first time.
    Pot, kettle, much?


    Pretty much any bomb is a chemical weapon. Whether it maims and kills you fast or slow, poisons you or blows you apart, what's the difference? Being mowed down by some aggressor's weapons, no matter what they use is still a nasty way to go.
    No not really. Certain weapons such as nerve gas are banned by the Geneva convention for being particularly horrible methods to kill people. Being blown to bits is at least quick. Having your lungs collapse not so much. There are few things more terrifying than dying from respiratory failure.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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