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Thread: Rewriting the History of Games

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    If people simply didn't know how to design levels and controls for 3D, surely that confirms it was risky and premature.
    Yes, but the first step had to be done sometime, it would have been the same 10 years later, just with better graphics most likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    The PS1 brought the origins of what in the UK we call the chav gamers: racing and soccer games had always existed, but people played other things as well before the PS1.
    As I said, the old 2D games were implemented by one or two man teams wiht a low 6 figure budget (if at all), contrarily, an AAA 3D title needs a 20 - 30 man team and a 7 figure budget. You want to minimize your risk with such an investment, so they copy what worked well for them. We can observe the same with movies nowadays, I don't think this is structurally the fault of Sony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    The PS1 is actually well known for shootingu titles. Its just that the West did not recieve them.
    Again, 95% of them are arcade ports, Harmful Park I already acknowledged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    And the Euroshmup (Apidya, Project X, SWIV) was well loved and huge on the Amiga and the 16 bit consoles: I still don't understand why it died other than licensing hostility.
    I don't understand either. I think the market was too saturated, too many games in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    Indie games cost nothing and attract no real attention: they are not taken seriously and those with retro graphics seem aimed at hipsters rather than games fans.
    Shovel Knight was quite a success. Even on the PS4. As you said yourself, the cost return is higher, because of the low production cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    Meanwhile niche bullet hell games can slow down current gen consoles - cutting edge not retro.
    Well, that's hardly a valid point, any baldy coded program can slow down anything.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

  2. #22
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Yes, but the first step had to be done sometime, it would have been the same 10 years later, just with better graphics most likely.
    And this was wrong, because? A lot of genres were hit by 3D. It was unforgivable and it needs undoing.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    And this was wrong, because? A lot of genres were hit by 3D. It was unforgivable and it needs undoing.
    Huh? I didn't say it was wrong, that was my point. 3D in 1991 in 2001 or in 1981, neither of these times is "wrong".
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

  4. #24
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Huh? I didn't say it was wrong, that was my point. 3D in 1991 in 2001 or in 1981, neither of these times is "wrong".
    You said it "had to be done", as in engineered by someone. Why?

    Had things stayed 2D (which they partly have, in Japan) why would it be worse? The wole 2D/3D controversy nowadays is because the shift feels forced, and a lot of people resent it.

    (Retro aesthetics like Shovel Knight are a step backwards: one can do better sprites now than an 8 bit console! Retro arcades and reto gaming bars are similarly a nostalgic fad, not looking forward. And as theme pub fads go, that for gaming was extremely short: normal pubs started to imitate having consoles in them, shortening the fad. Retro won't bring 2D back.)

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    You said it "had to be done", as in engineered by someone. Why?
    Otherwise you can't get experience with 3D, someone had to try it out, or are you saying you want no 3D games at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    Had things stayed 2D (which they partly have, in Japan) why would it be worse? The wole 2D/3D controversy nowadays is because the shift feels forced, and a lot of people resent it.
    I am not sure, I doubt it had been worse, but certain game design concepts which are fun would not have been possible to implement in 2D.
    I am no fan of Sony's 3D only policy, I like 2D games as well as 3D ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    Retro aesthetics like Shovel Knight are a step backwards: one can do better sprites now than an 8 bit console!
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    Retro won't bring 2D back.
    Not directly, but the relative success of those games certainly gave confidence to better 2D implementations like "Bloodstained".
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

  6. #26
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    Well its not like Japan saw it as either/or. The question is why 2D died in the West (hurting Japan in the process). Since this is about the Western industry and the death of 2D is one way in which it diverged from that in Japan, I don't think Bloodstained is relevant. He is continuing Castlevania without the intellectual property in Japan, and Japan is not against 2D: 2D is not retro over there, or Vanillaware would be considered retro. Castlevania itself continued in 2D on the Nintendo handheld format as you know.

    I do not mind the existence of 3D games but I object, as I said, that the death of 2D in the west felt forced. Not even Japanese titles were imported (RPGs had the same problem as shootingu). In that sense I harbour a grudge, as I already stated. 3D platform games are not platform games at all and most 3D genres like the FPS and anything third person with manual camera angles, does not interest me at all. The best 3D games were Panzer Dragoon and the like (IMO).

    "3D ruined games" is a useful catchphrase for a suite of disastrous changes that hit the industry and subculture at the same time. So I'm going to stick with it even if not 100% true. I do wish that the PS1 era had not happened. Not just the Playstation, or Sony entering the industry. Sega and Nintendo made awful (but different) decisions at that time. Sega died and Nintendo entered self-imposed irrelevancy. The next disaster after the triumph of the chav gamer, was the rise of online gaming culture (yuck).

  7. #27
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    Is it true as Jäger said that the PS1 had brought home computer type games to consoles? Please think: the "euroshmup" died, Sensible Soccer failed to get sales on the PlayStation though it had been the best selling Amiga title before that. The most obvious heir to the Amiga and the like was surely the home PC, not the PlayStation. Is true that things like GTA and Tomb Raider took off: but the sandbox had been sparse on the home computers and Tomb Raider represents a new genre, the 3D "platformer".

  8. #28
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    I found another one.

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/07/...can-made-games

    The nationa origin of arcade games did not matter to punters, but yet the success of Mortal Kombat in the arcades was a sign American games were pushing back (against what?) in the arcades?

    Even the better histories of gaming make errors such as that and seem to have an an anti-Japanese bias.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Mööv's Avatar
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    Just bumped into this, and this topic seems appropriate to post it in.

    Well Played
    a journal on video games, value and meaning
    What makes a game good? or bad? or better?
    The Well Played Journal is a forum for in-depth close readings of video games that parse out the various meanings to be found in the experience of playing a game. It is a reviewed journal with CfPs for submissions that will be released on a regular basis with high-quality essays.
    Contributors are encouraged to analyze sequences in a game in detail in order to illustrate and interpret how the various components of a game can come together to create a fulfilling playing experience unique to this medium. Through contributors, the journal will provide a variety of perspectives on the value of games.
    As with the three Well Played books (1.0 | 2.0 | 3.0), the term “well played” is being used in two senses. On the one hand, well played is to games as well read is to books. So, a person who reads books a lot is "well read" and a person who plays games a lot is "well played." On the other hand, well played as in well done. So, a hand of poker can be “well played” by a person, and a game can be “well played” by the development team.
    Contributors are encouraged to look at video games through both senses of “well played.” So, with well played as in well read, contributors are looking closely at the experience of playing a game. And with well played as in well done, contributors are looking at a game in terms of how well it is designed and developed.
    The goal of the journal is to continue developing and defining a literacy of games as well as a sense of their value as an experience. Contributors are invited to also discuss games in general (ranging from tabletop, to big games and more) and how they are often designed for different fields (education, entertainment, etc) as we more fully develop a literacy around games and play. Contributors are encouraged to consider using screenshots and video of their gameplay in order to help illustrate their ideas. And we're open to suggestions on themed issues around a specific game or a topic across games.
    Video games are a complex medium that merits careful interpretation and insightful analysis. By inviting contributors to look closely at video games and the experience of playing them, we hope to expand the discussion, and show how games are well played in a variety of ways.
    Well Played session tracks are also being held at academic and industry conferences. There are sessions at Games, Learning and Society, DiGRA, IndieCade and Games for Change, as well as at the Museum of the Moving Image in New York, with other events being planned.
    Website of the journal >> http://press.etc.cmu.edu/wellplayed
    Lieber tot als Sklave!

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