Results 1 to 3 of 3

Thread: Norse-Mediterranean Correspondences

  1. #1
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Last Online
    Thursday, September 7th, 2017 @ 01:29 AM
    Ethnicity
    Mixed Germanic and Celtic
    Ancestry
    British Isles & Scandinavia
    Subrace
    Borreby x Nordic
    Country
    Other Other
    Location
    Aqua
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    Gondolier
    Posts
    2,196
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    20
    Thanked in
    20 Posts

    Grin Norse-Mediterranean Correspondences

    Divine correspondences between the Norse/Germanic and other pantheons are something about which I am asked often. In truth the notion of seven planetary gods diffused outward from Mesopotamia, where it is post-Sumerian, and may have arrived in the North with Christianisation. Nonetheless it is possible to infer functions from the structures recognised by Germanic culture.

    From Sunday to Saturday they are:

    Sunna/Sol = Sol = Helios = Shamash
    Mani = Luna = Selene = Sin
    Tiw/Tyr = Mars = Ares = Nergal
    Woden/Odhinn = Mercury = Hermes = Nabu
    Thunor/Thorr = Jupiter = Zeus = Marduk
    Frige/Frigg = Venus = Aphrodite = Inanna
    Lodhurr = Saturn = Cronus = Ninurta

    The identification of Friday with Frigg rather than Freyja has been taken as an assumption the goddesses are somehow identical despite their different personalities and functions. However the septenary planetary identifications in the north are a Roman borrowing and Venus was regarded there more of a mother than Aphrodite was in Greece.

    Tyr is problematic though he was an important deity whose name and role in navigation connects him to the celestial vault. The Interpretio Romana has him as Mars because he was associated with weapons and contracts. Georges Dumezil thought him a Nordic Mithra on that latter point.

    The identification of Saturn with Lodhurr comes from the Swedish day name often mistranslated as "washing day". Lodhurr is another name for Loki or Loptr. In late folklore Loki does actually have attributes of the third function.

  2. #2
    Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves.
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Wulfaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Last Online
    9 Hours Ago @ 03:49 PM
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Germans, Hungarians, Slavs
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    Holy Roman Empire Holy Roman Empire
    Gender
    Politics
    Democratic National-Conservativ
    Religion
    Christian
    Posts
    1,550
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    56
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    62
    Thanked in
    42 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    From Sunday to Saturday they are:

    Sunna/Sol = Sol = Helios = Shamash
    Mani = Luna = Selene = Sin
    Tiw/Tyr = Mars = Ares = Nergal
    Woden/Odhinn = Mercury = Hermes = Nabu
    Thunor/Thorr = Jupiter = Zeus = Marduk
    Frige/Frigg = Venus = Aphrodite = Inanna
    Lodhurr = Saturn = Cronus = Ninurta
    It is a very courageful thing that you dare compare the holy Norse Gods, the other Indo-European Gods with the swarthy dönerkebab Dieties.

    However I always support the daring ideas if they are progressives. The first conntact was between the Semites and the Indo-Europeans that I have written in another thread, the original Proto-Indo-Europeans were Proto-Semites whos had brought the Neolithic culture, own language, own believes to Europe from the Middle-East.

    Hence the compared things did not comen from the North, but they have comen from the South. First of all the original Dieties of many people are nature Dieties or Gods, Goddesses, like as the Japanese Kamis or the other Ghosts and Nature Souls of the local inhabitants in many place of the World.

    Hence the original Germanic or Middle-European Gods were the Gods and Goddesses of Nature like as
    Njördr, the God of Weather and Sea.
    Freyja, the Goddes of fertility and Love.
    Donar, the God of the Thunder.
    Frigg, the Goddess of the Marrriage.
    Wotan, the God of the Wisdom.
    Skadi, the Goddess of Winter and Hunt.
    Baldr and Frey, the Male beauty.


    You see I mixed the classical Vaenir, Aesir Gods and Goddesses as Wotan or Donar maybe the God of the Aesir, but they have a function as a natural God as the Thunder or the Wisdom of the early, paleolithic human.

    The God whos must comen from a more developed culture, he are
    Tiwaz/Tiw/Tyr/Ziu, originally the main God, the God of the Sky, the God of all God, they name means simply "God". This name has a common IE root with the Sanskrit Dievas or Dievas Piter (Sky Father), the Greek Zeus, the main God, the Lord of the Sky, the Thunder and his animal the Eagle, the alternative form of his name are

    Δάν ‎(Dán) Aeolic
    Δεύς ‎(Deús) Laconian
    Ζάν ‎(Zán), Ζάς ‎(Zás) Doric
    Ζήν ‎(Zḗn) poetic
    Θιός ‎(Thiós), Σιός ‎(Siós) Boeotian
    Τάν ‎(Tán) Cretan

    moreover the Ancient Greek Theos means simply God f.e. Theology.
    The next one is the latin Deus means God, and the Dies Pater, later Iovis Pater, at least Iuppiter, the main God, the God of Sky and Thunder. Interestingly that the syntaxis is that the Dies Pater is so similar to the Sasnkrit Dievas Pitar.

    After it we can see, that the idea of main God had comen from a more developed culture, from a civilization. Hence Tiwaz/Tiw/Tyr/Ziu is "newcomer" who had comen with a more civilized people, the IE-people. One moment, it is interresant that among the Scandinavians Tiwaz as Tyr lost own main God character and he had becomen the God of war. Well, the war is a newcomer thing in the early Neolithic Middle-Europe where never were wars before. The cult of patriarchism, the weapon, the battle had carried the IE-people from the Middle-East when Jericoh had walls 10'000 years ageo. It is certain that it as not against the wolves.

    Another newcomer is
    Heimdall, the warrior God.
    Forseti, the God of Court, Judgement what had surely comen from a higher developed Middle-Eastern civilzation.
    Bragi, the God of Poetry, this had comen surely from a higher developed civisation too.
    Loki, the cunning, trouble maker, this typ of God is the basic form of the later Evil Gods of the Middle-East. In a closed paleolithic circle might was bad as a concept, but I think a complet God of making trouble is a newcomer again.
    Hel, the Goddess of the Hell. Yes, the two world is not accidently similar. The concept of Hell, a place of the bad souls will come, this is another concept of a higher developed civilisation.

    Tiwaz and these newcomers had comen from the Middle-East with the Indo-Europeans and after that the IE-people melted into the local ones, they had left to the local inhabitants own Gods and Goddesses, own technologies and own languages, hence the 2/3 of the Germanic languages IE. After it the new peoples, the Proto-Germans, Proto-Keltis, Proto-Italians, Proto-Greeks, Proto-Indo-Iranians had started own short or so long way to own later new home and they spread the IE doughter-languages, culture and religion believes. Thus was a Dievas Pitar in India and a Dies Pater in Italia.

    Catterick I would change your list.

    Sunna/Sowilo = Sol = Helios = do not Shamash, because Nature God and Goddess are local inhbitants in Europe.
    Mani = Luna = Selene = do not Sin, he is a natural God too.
    Tiw/Tyr = Mars = Ares = do not Nergal, the line is Tiwaz=Iuppiter=Zeus=Marduk, but the main God concept had comen from the Middle-East, the names are not relativ. But the concept are yes.
    Woden/Odhinn = Mercury = Hermes = do not Nabu, he is is a natural God too. The paleolithic ones had known about Wisdom
    Thunor/Thorr = Jupiter = Zeus = do not Marduk, his main God conception is similar to Tiwaz=Iuppiter=Zeus.
    Frige/Frigg = Venus = Aphrodite = do not Inanna, she war the Goddess of the beauty and love, hence it would be better Freyja=Venus=Aphrodite, but these are natural Goddes
    Frigg=Hera=Iuno, the Goddessses of Marriage, what is natural, paleolithic thing.
    Lodhurr = Saturn = Cronus = Ninurta No, Saturn was the God of Time and Fertility of the Soil, Kronos was a Titan, one of the elder Goddes whos had lost own power. However the concept of torublemaking, the character of Loki is might had comen from the Middle-East as a higher developed culture know about how to lie, to make trouble, to make evil things. The natural paleolithic peoples are naiv for this.

    "Remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus,"or that virtue "was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice."
    /King Baldwin IV in the Kingdom of Heaven/

  3. #3
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Last Online
    Thursday, September 7th, 2017 @ 01:29 AM
    Ethnicity
    Mixed Germanic and Celtic
    Ancestry
    British Isles & Scandinavia
    Subrace
    Borreby x Nordic
    Country
    Other Other
    Location
    Aqua
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    Gondolier
    Posts
    2,196
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    20
    Thanked in
    20 Posts
    The point was that when Greeks adopted the Mesopotamian day names for gods, they demonstrated the structure of their pantheon. And so ad infinitum. The day names and the science of astronomy/astrology spread eastward to China and the east at the same time. Kiwan = Saturn, Mi = the Sun et cetera. Any connection between Saturnus and Lodhurr was made in antiquity.

    *Tiwaz is a theonym relating to the celestial vault, his name is an isogloss involving only certain branches of IE as well as Uralic and including Iranic but not Indic (as a result of a pun, the peacock became the celestial vault in ancient Iran: but this follows an earlier tradition in which the raven represents the sky). The name at least of Heimdall is an attempt to translate the name of a Persian yazata: though he himself is surely older. The story of Baldr and Nanna is Sogdian with Sumerian precedents; there were Manichean fire tenples on the Baltic and in the North Caucasus. The amber trade changed a lot.

    Loki belongs to a broadly distributed group of myths that includes Syrdon, Sir Kai* and Bricriu so is likely *PIE but became forgotten in some branches.

    Hel is a Vainakh or at least Caucasus/Black Sea borrowing similar to *Wodanaz from reconstructed Alanic *Wardanaz. She appears in Chechen mythology as a goddess of the underworld also entering Arthurian canon from the Goths/Alans as Helaine/Elaine. Her theonym is an isogloss meaning darkness. Helen at Leuke as well: she resembles the post-Christian Queen Hel as bride of Satan in her relationship with the weeping god Achilles Pontarches.

    * Sir Kai has Ossetic parallels; he is a warrior in Continental tradition but a Syrdon-like trickster in Insular Cetic lore. This might make us question whether they were ever the same. But Syrdon and his Caucasus cognates may express a martial aspect and Loki it should be noted does have a martial nature both as Lodhurr and in the Faroese Lokatattur. The two Kai figures may not be separate. The name refers to a geographical location. He is not Kai Khosrau but renamed for Caen, Bretagne.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 13
    Last Post: Friday, May 21st, 2010, 12:34 AM
  2. Astrology: Planetary Attributes and Correspondences
    By Brynhild in forum Indo-Germanic Spirituality
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: Monday, November 5th, 2007, 10:00 AM
  3. The Runic Journey/Rune Correspondences
    By Thorburn in forum Runes & Sinnbildkunde
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Sunday, July 9th, 2006, 04:38 PM
  4. Runic Correspondences: Runes and Respective Trees/Herbs/Colors
    By Blutwölfin in forum Runes & Sinnbildkunde
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Friday, April 21st, 2006, 06:05 PM
  5. Runic Correspondences: Runes of the Gods
    By Blutwölfin in forum Runes & Sinnbildkunde
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: Thursday, March 2nd, 2006, 11:49 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •