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Thread: Was Hitler the Man of the Catholic Church?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    You are deflecting from the issue. I have asked you to furnish evidence to support the theory that Jesus of Nazareth was an historical figure. You have not done so; therefore I must conclude that you are unable to do so because there isn't any. I am well aware that religious movements can be founded on mythical or legendary persons but Christian doctrine requires of its adherents to believe in the physical incarnation of Jesus-a concept that is not supported by historical evidence.
    Admittedly, not even the most well-trained philologist would be able to prove Jesus' existence. I can only rely on his anti-Semitism and historic Jewish contempt for him.

    But then it needs to be asked: who authored those anti-Semitic statements in Matthew 23? I distinguish between the woes and the isolated remarks (John 8:44, Rev. 3:9). It cannot have been an interpolation by the Church, which merely parrots in it's policies on the Jewish question. The Church Fathers demonstrate ignorance in their contempt for Jews. A self-hating Jew seems plausible, but then why would Jews allow it's distribution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    First of all you are misrepresenting what I have said. I referred to the influence that von Liebenfels and von List had upon the MAGICKAL worldview of Hitler. I did not refer to his views on mythology. By any case von Liebenfels was not by any stretch of the imagination a proponent of the Old Gods. The influence of these two people on Hitler is documented in Dr Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's The Occult Roots of Nazism. Secret Aryan Cults and their Influence on Nazi Ideology, 1985 and Hitler's Monsters: A Supernatural History of the Third Reich, 2017 by Eric Kurlander which goes into painstaking detail on this very issue.
    I keep saying this and I will say it again; Germany was a Christian country. Openly discussing issues relating to the Occult would have been extremely counterproductive.
    What on earth do you mean by magickal?

    So you trust mainstream historians who quote extensively from other historians over memoirs of Hitler's closest associates (i.e. Heinrich Hoffman, Heinz Linge)? Just because it fits into your anti-Christian, pro-heathen sentiment?

    Speaking of Goodrick-Clarke, Weikart argued that Goodrick-Clarke had discovered the opposite of what his title suggests, that NS did not have occult origins. He quotes from Goodrick-Clarke's book, "Ariosophy is a symptom rather than influence in the way that it anticipated Nazism." That is, the racialist and eugenicist ideas were already prevalent in Germany, despite Christianity being the predominant religion. They were merely picked up by occult sects.

    Even if Eric Kurlander's book were well-detailed, it means very little if it's not relying chiefly on primary/secondary sources. Weikart's book on Hitler's Religion lists 90 pages of such sources (with the occasional reference to other historians), often in their original German publication and usually obscure to English readers (i.e. Rosenberg's diaries).

  2. #22
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    Icarus. Admittedly, not even the most well-trained philologist would be able to prove Jesus' existence. I can only rely on his anti-Semitism and historic Jewish contempt for him.
    If you cannot prove his existence then he did not exist. It is as simple as that. We can prove the existence of other people from antiquity so why not Jesus of Nazareth, the founder of a major world religion? This issue is important as the Church requires its believers to accept that Jesus was born in the flesh and died. If there is no evidence for these things then the religion is built upon a lie.

    Icarus. But then it needs to be asked: who authored those anti-Semitic statements in Matthew 23? I distinguish between the woes and the isolated remarks (John 8:44, Rev. 3:9). It cannot have been an interpolation by the Church, which merely parrots in it's policies on the Jewish question. The Church Fathers demonstrate ignorance in their contempt for Jews. A self-hating Jew seems plausible, but then why would Jews allow it's distribution?
    None of this is evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. The gospels are not contemporary records but fictional stories.

    Icarus.
    What on earth do you mean by magickal?
    Don't you have a dictionary?


    Icarus. So you trust mainstream historians who quote extensively from other historians over memoirs of Hitler's closest associates (i.e. Heinrich Hoffman, Heinz Linge)? Just because it fits into your anti-Christian, pro-heathen sentiment?
    Speaking of Goodrick-Clarke, Weikart argued that Goodrick-Clarke had discovered the opposite of what his title suggests, that NS did not have occult origins. He quotes from Goodrick-Clarke's book, "Ariosophy is a symptom rather than influence in the way that it anticipated Nazism." That is, the racialist and eugenicist ideas were already prevalent in Germany, despite Christianity being the predominant religion. They were merely picked up by occult sects.

    Even if Eric Kurlander's book were well-detailed, it means very little if it's not relying chiefly on primary/secondary sources. Weikart's book on Hitler's Religion lists 90 pages of such sources (with the occasional reference to other historians), often in their original German publication and usually obscure to English readers (i.e. Rosenberg's diaries).
    Dr Goodrick-Clarke was a respective academic who wrote three books on the cultic and esoteric aspects of National Socialism. I see no reason to question his scholarship. You clearly have not read any of his works or you would not have made such a comment. You are confusing Hitler's racial world view with his occultic and magickal world view. The influence of Ariosophy upon the latter is well documented not only by him but more recently by Kurlander. You have also clearly not read Kurlander's book but that does no appear to prevent you from venturing an 'opinion'.
    Linge and Hoffman like other people on the periphery of Hitler's life knew only certain aspects of the man. Their input therefore is of limited value.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    If you cannot prove his existence then he did not exist. It is as simple as that. We can prove the existence of other people from antiquity so why not Jesus of Nazareth, the founder of a major world religion? This issue is important as the Church requires its believers to accept that Jesus was born in the flesh and died. If there is no evidence for these things then the religion is built upon a lie.
    You can prove the existence of other people from antiquity as long as the pertaining literature is still around. No one would know anything about Celsus if Origen hadn't penned a rebuttal. Does that mean Celsus would cease existing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    None of this is evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. The gospels are not contemporary records but fictional stories.
    The narrative is fiction, the maxims contained in it are authentic. Gospel of Thomas simply features sayings attributed to Jesus. I'm saying that the maxims found in the syncretic gospels originally would have been derived from a similar book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Don't you have a dictionary?
    If people nowadays had access to magic, wouldn't they have already destroyed themselves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Dr Goodrick-Clarke was a respective academic who wrote three books on the cultic and esoteric aspects of National Socialism. I see no reason to question his scholarship. You clearly have not read any of his works or you would not have made such a comment. You are confusing Hitler's racial world view with his occultic and magickal world view.
    And who has time to read three books? They never get to the point. I can sum up NS esoterics with three maxims: god helps those who help themselves, struggle is the father of all things, healthy mind in a healthy body.

    Actually I have a full copy of his book in pdf form, but I haven't read it in a while.

    Race and religion were not separated for Hitler, just as it wasn't for ancient Germans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    The influence of Ariosophy upon the latter is well documented not only by him but more recently by Kurlander. You have also clearly not read Kurlander's book but that does no appear to prevent you from venturing an 'opinion'.
    I wasn't aware that this was an academic only topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Linge and Hoffman like other people on the periphery of Hitler's life knew only certain aspects of the man. Their input therefore is of limited value.
    What about Hermann Giesler?

    Not if it's put together. Contradictions are scarce, their descriptions of Hitler are consistent. They are more trustworthy than what later generations (often non-Germans) have imputed to Hitler.

  4. #24
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    Icarus
    You can prove the existence of other people from antiquity as long as the pertaining literature is still around. No one would know anything about Celsus if Origen hadn't penned a rebuttal. Does that mean Celsus would cease existing?
    You are deflecting again. You cannot provide me with one iota of evidence for the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth. You clearly know enough to realise that there isn't any but why you insist on not admitting to this is rather strange.

    Icarus. The narrative is fiction, the maxims contained in it are authentic. Gospel of Thomas simply features sayings attributed to Jesus. I'm saying that the maxims found in the syncretic gospels originally would have been derived from a similar book.
    The whole story of Jesus of Nazareth is fiction. The issue regarding the origins of the teachings is another matter. Yet the church insists that its believers accept the historical existence of its alleged founder. Indeed not too long ago those who expressed such doubts would have been burned as 'heretics'. (Little difference there to ISIS)
    Icarus


    If people nowadays had access to magic, wouldn't they have already destroyed themselves?

    You are commenting on a subject which you have no first or second hand knowledge of. I made it clear that there is a most definite link between German Ariosophy and the occultic world view of Hitler. This is an entirely separate subject to race or religion.
    Icarus

    And who has time to read three books? They never get to the point. I can sum up NS esoterics with three maxims: god helps those who help themselves, struggle is the father of all things, healthy mind in a healthy body.
    Actually I have a full copy of his book in pdf form, but I haven't read it in a while.
    I have read and indeed own thousands of books-real books made from paper. I find it incredulous that anyone could make the remark that they do not have time to read a mere 3 books and yet they set themselves as a critic of the said books and their teaching!


    Icarus Race and religion were not separated for Hitler, just as it wasn't for ancient Germans.
    Firstly the ancient Teutons are unlikely to have had a concept based on any racial worldview as generally speaking the vast majority of them did not encounter other races, only other tribes. Again you talk about 'religion' whilst I am referring to the realms of magick and the occult. Do you not understand the differences?
    Icarus
    I wasn't aware that this was an academic only topic.
    You are the one who cast doubt upon the influence of Ariosophy upon Hitler. I have made you aware of just 2 academics who would have disagreed with you.

    Icarus What about Hermann Giesler?
    What about Giesler?
    Icarus

    Not if it's put together. Contradictions are scarce, their descriptions of Hitler are consistent. They are more trustworthy than what later generations (often non-Germans) have imputed to Hitler.
    As I have already said to you people on the periphery of Hitler's life would not have had any knowledge about his inner life and occultic influences. This is why we rely upon historians. Their knowledge of the real man was thus limited (as Hitler intended).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    The whole story of Jesus of Nazareth is fiction. The issue regarding the origins of the teachings is another matter. Yet the church insists that its believers accept the historical existence of its alleged founder. Indeed not too long ago those who expressed such doubts would have been burned as 'heretics'. (Little difference there to ISIS)
    A person lives on in his teachings. Who was the author of the NT gospel ethics if not "Jesus"?

    ISIS is controlled opposition (supports Israeli interests) calculated to make Islam look more barbaric than it already is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    You are commenting on a subject which you have no first or second hand knowledge of. I made it clear that there is a most definite link between German Ariosophy and the occultic world view of Hitler. This is an entirely separate subject to race or religion.
    You speak about magic, but you never provided an explanation on it.

    If you wish to connect Hitler to Ariosophy, you must also establish a connection with Theosophy.

    "Even before the First World War, occult-racist völkisch sects in Austria and Germany had quarried the ideas of Theosophy for the Aryo-Germanic cult of Ariosophy." - Goodrich-Clarke

    Why did Hitler never pay homage to the theory of root-races?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    I have read and indeed own thousands of books-real books made from paper. I find it incredulous that anyone could make the remark that they do not have time to read a mere 3 books and yet they set themselves as a critic of the said books and their teaching!
    I have never finished a single non-fiction book from front to back. How could anyone possibly read in that manner without dulling their minds? I acquired a razor-sharp mind from selective reading, purpose-driven inquiries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Firstly the ancient Teutons are unlikely to have had a concept based on any racial worldview as generally speaking the vast majority of them did not encounter other races, only other tribes. Again you talk about 'religion' whilst I am referring to the realms of magick and the occult. Do you not understand the differences?
    That sounds absurd. Tacitus plainly said they were racially conscious. Plus the Jews and Egyptians were for a long time cut off from other races yet they still managed to conceive a racial worldview (Gen. 43:32).

    Race and religion were inseparable concepts in antiquity. This can easily be gleamed from the essay of Julian of Apostate. Polytheism and polygenism went hand-in-hand. And it wasn't just Greece/Rome.

    "The direct historical evidence concerning the religion of the ancient Germans is scanty. It is known that it was most intimately incorporated with the thoughts, characters and lives of the people; that their old beliefs and usages continued, to be cherished for centuries after the introduction of Christianity, side by side with those of the purer religion." - M.C. Springer

    "We have seen how, in contrast to peoples of the Semitic type, the attitudes of soul, will and reason of the Nordics toward the universe were essentially in harmony." - Alfred Rosenberg

    "As for their religion, there was no necessity to put it into words, which suited a people who were naturally frugal with their words anyway. They carried their spiritual consciousness deep within their souls; it served them like a compass needle which always steers a ship on its proper course." - Frithjof Fischer

    "The free fancy of the ancients, which wove the web of their myths and legends, was consecrated by faith. It had not, like the modern mind, set apart a petty sanctuary of borrowed beliefs, beyond which all the rest was common and unclean. Imagination, reason, and religion circled round the same symbol; - Albert Pike

    "Few of the early cults actually worshiped anthropomorphic deities, although their symbolism might lead one to believe they did. They were moralistic rather than religionistic; philosophic rather than theologic." - Manly P. Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    You are the one who cast doubt upon the influence of Ariosophy upon Hitler. I have made you aware of just 2 academics who would have disagreed with you.
    Sigh. So it has to be this way huh.

    First of all, does this mean you don't acknowledge Dr. Richard Weikart as an academic?

    Second, let me produce direct quotes from your favorite academic...

    "During the Third Reich Lanz is supposed to have been forbidden to publish, and his organizations, the ONT and the Lumenclub, were officially dissolved by order of the Gestapo."

    "It also remains a fact that Hitler never mentioned the name of Lanz in any recorded conversation, speech, or document. If Hitler had been importantly influenced by his contact with the Ostara, he cannot be said to have ever acknowledged this debt... The evidence for Hitler's knowledge of Guido von List and his Armanism is less firm and rests upon the testimony of a third party and some literary inferences."

    Goodrick-Clarke mainly succeeds in connecting William L. Pierce's cosmotheism and Christian Identity to Ariosophy. Goodrick-Clarke says nothing about it explicitly influencing Hitler, he merely examines it's plausibility (what amounts to speculation and inference) in the last chapter of one of his books.

    Incidentally, Goodrick-Clarke mentions a close associate of Liebenfels, Herbert Reichstein (Jewish surname). He also mentions and confirms the involvement of at least two Jewish members of the Guido von List Society, Moritz Altschüler and Ernst Wachle. Jews had a role in shaping Ariosophy, don't you find that rather suspicious? It's not like the case of Emil Maurice, who was discovered to be a mischling after he had been dismissed from service.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    What about Giesler?
    His memoirs were never translated into English until recently. Why did mainstream historians pick Albert Speer over Hitler's other architect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    As I have already said to you people on the periphery of Hitler's life would not have had any knowledge about his inner life and occultic influences. This is why we rely upon historians. Their knowledge of the real man was thus limited (as Hitler intended).
    And why do we need historians to piece together facts? Anyone can do that detective work.

    I find it strange how you never defer to revisionists but instead submit to mainstream historians with hostile positions.

    Of course, I hold all historians in scorn, regardless of their position on the Holocaust and other WW2-related subjects, but try quoting from some revisionists every now and then if you really wish to be acknowledged as a NS representative rather than an anti-nationalist subversive.

  6. #26
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    Icarus
    A person lives on in his teachings. Who was the author of the NT gospel ethics if not "Jesus"?

    ISIS is controlled opposition (supports Israeli interests) calculated to make Islam look more barbaric than it already is.
    I may have enjoyed reading the adventures of Biggles as a child but I never was under the illusion that he was an historical character. The gospels were written many years after the alleged death of the alleged Jesus. They are works of fiction and Jesus himself is a mythological archetype with elements plagiarised from Indo-European sun myths. I am still waiting for you to furnish evidence that an historical Jesus ever existed. You appear to be struggling with this, having to really reach down into the barrel to scrape out some exceedingly weak arguments to support your thesis.
    There is no qualitative difference between the terrorist techniques of ISIS and the Christianisation of the northern European peoples. This is the point which I have tried to make. The church ruled by terror, encouraging ignorance for centuries in Europe.

    Icarus
    You speak about magic, but you never provided an explanation on it.

    If you wish to connect Hitler to Ariosophy, you must also establish a connection with Theosophy.

    "Even before the First World War, occult-racist völkisch sects in Austria and Germany had quarried the ideas of Theosophy for the Aryo-Germanic cult of Ariosophy." - Goodrich-Clarke

    Why did Hitler never pay homage to the theory of root-races?
    I find it incredulous and slightly amusing that you do not understand the concept of magick which is the exercise of the subjective will of the magician upon the objective world to produce an intended effect or change. Hitler understood this and his personal library contained many works on magick and the occult, heavily annotated by his own hand.
    The connection between Ariosophy has already been established by both Goodrick-Clarke and most especially by Kurlander. It is not necessary for me to establish a connection directly between theosophy and Hitler, merely that there is an Ariosophical influence which has been well established. With regard to root races why would Hitler speak about such things openly to a Christian electorate? How would THAT consolidate his position and power over the German people?

    Icarus
    I have never finished a single non-fiction book from front to back. How could anyone possibly read in that manner without dulling their minds? I acquired a razor-sharp mind from selective reading, purpose-driven inquiries.
    That to me is indicative of a lack of internal discipline and a short attention span. Nothing in life can be achieved by short cuts.


    Icarus First of all, does this mean you don't acknowledge
    Dr.
    Richard Weikart as an academic?
    I have not denied he is an academic. I have merely questioned his relevance to the issues that we are discussing?

    Icarus
    "During the Third Reich Lanz is supposed to have been forbidden to publish, and his organizations, the ONT and the Lumenclub, were officially dissolved by order of the Gestapo."

    "It also remains a fact that Hitler never mentioned the name of Lanz in any recorded conversation, speech, or document. If Hitler had been importantly influenced by his contact with the Ostara, he cannot be said to have ever acknowledged this debt...
    The evidence for Hitler's knowledge of Guido von List and his Armanism is less firm and rests upon the testimony of a third party and some literary inferences
    ."

    Yes under the influence of Karl Maria Willigut and after the flight of Hess there was a clampdown on both Ariosophical writers, Armanists and occultists generally except those who fell under the patronage of Himmler but the clampdown as Kurlander has shown was very piecemeal and selective. The NSDAP sought to control every aspect of life in Germany and this included beliefs. One need only consider the oppression of the churches within the Third Reich, especially those who would not conform to Nazi doctrine. There would have been nothing more embarrassing or damaging to Hitler politically for him to openly support what would have been viewed as fringe beliefs and 'cranks'. This is why his public speeches are often at odds with his private conversations. They were sheer propaganda. In any religion or magickal order there is an inner and an outer order, an esoteric and an exoteric. Kurlander has demonstrated to a much greater degree the link between von Liebenfels and Hitler than Goodrick-Clarke as his scholarship is far more recent and extensive.

    Goodrick-Clarke mainly succeeds in connecting William L. Pierce's cosmotheism and Christian Identity to Ariosophy. Goodrick-Clarke says nothing about it explicitly influencing Hitler, he merely examines it's plausibility (what amounts to speculation and inference) in the last chapter of one of his books.

    Incidentally, Goodrick-Clarke mentions a close associate of Liebenfels, Herbert Reichstein (Jewish surname). He also mentions and confirms the involvement of at least two Jewish members of the Guido von List Society, Moritz Altschüler and Ernst Wachle. Jews had a role in shaping Ariosophy, don't you find that rather suspicious? It's not like the case of Emil Maurice, who was discovered to be a mischling after he had been dismissed from service.
    Where is your evidence that Ernst Wachler was a Jew? Goodrick-Clarke stated that he was voelkisch author and the founder of an open-air Germanic theatre in the Harz mountains. (page 43) Your accusation appears to be unlikely. I can find any reference to a Moritz Altschueler. Whilst Reichstein is repeatedly mentioned by Goodrick-Clarke he gives no indication in his book that he is a Jew. He was a voelkisch author and publisher. Again you appear to be making claims not based upon evidence.

    His memoirs were never translated into English until recently. Why did mainstream historians pick Albert Speer over Hitler's other architect?
    What is the relevance of your question? Speer was a senior Minister in Hitler's cabinet, one of the most prominent in the Reich. What he thus had to say after the war was thus highly important although not necessarily fully truthful.

    Icarus
    And why do we need historians to piece together facts? Anyone can do that detective work.
    I find it strange how you never defer to revisionists but instead submit to mainstream historians with hostile positions.
    Of course, I hold all historians in scorn, regardless of their position on the Holocaust and other WW2-related subjects, but try quoting from some revisionists every now and then if you really wish to be acknowledged as a NS representative rather than an anti-nationalist subversive.
    Historians are trained academics who have experience in sifting evidence and assessing its importance and validity, something beyond the scope of the average opinionated taxi driver. I find most revisionists are not qualified historians and lack the ability to keep a level head as they tend to look for 'evidence' that fits their preconceived theories rather than see where the evidence takes them in an objective manner. I don't know whether you could class David Irving as a 'revisionist' but I respect his scholarship and have a number of his works, one of which he personally signed and sent to me as a free gift.
    In terms of who I will 'quote from' I will be the judge of that, not you. I am not and never have been an 'NS representative'. My work and goals are spiritual in nature, not political. Likewise I have never maintained that I am a 'nationalist'. Questioning a prevailing narrative does not make one 'subversive' but a person who has the ability to think for himself. This is the problem with mass movements-you have to leave your brains at the door to enter therein.
    Icarus
    That sounds absurd. Tacitus plainly said they were racially conscious. Plus the Jews and Egyptians were for a long time cut off from other races yet they still managed to conceive a racial worldview (Gen. 43:32).

    Race and religion were inseparable concepts in antiquity. This can easily be gleamed from the essay of Julian of Apostate. Polytheism and polygenism went hand-in-hand. And it wasn't just Greece/Rome.

    "The direct historical evidence concerning the religion of the ancient Germans is scanty.
    It is known that it was most intimately incorporated with the thoughts, characters and lives of the people
    ; that their old beliefs and usages continued, to be cherished for centuries after the introduction of Christianity, side by side with those of the purer religion." - M.C. Springer

    "We have seen how, in contrast to peoples of the Semitic type, the attitudes of soul, will and reason of the Nordics toward the universe were essentially in harmony." - Alfred Rosenberg

    "As for their religion, there was no necessity to put it into words, which suited a people who were naturally frugal with their words anyway. They carried their spiritual consciousness deep within their souls; it served them like a compass needle which always steers a ship on its proper course." - Frithjof Fischer

    "The free fancy of the ancients, which wove the web of their myths and legends, was consecrated by faith. It had not, like the modern mind, set apart a petty sanctuary of borrowed beliefs, beyond which all the rest was common and unclean. Imagination, reason, and religion circled round the same symbol; - Albert Pike

    "Few of the early cults actually worshiped anthropomorphic deities, although their symbolism might lead one to believe they did. They were moralistic rather than religionistic; philosophic rather than theologic." - Manly P. Hall
    Tacitus did NOT say that they were "racially conscious". He said that they were of unmixed stock. The reason for this is not to be found in any racial doctrine but their lack of proximity to other races! In fact have you actually read Germania?
    The Egyptians not eating bread with the Hebrews is not evidence of 'racial consciousness'. the Teutons unlike the Egyptians (who DID encounter other races) did not live in close proximity to other races.
    Race, religion and magick are three different disciplines and are not necessarily interdependent except perhaps in the case of ancestral religions.
    Rosenberg was a racialist and his work is hardly free of subjectivity and bias. It is not a work that one could use to illustrate an argument objectively with although I have read it (from cover to cover) and occasionally refer to. The grip that the semitic religion of Christianity still has on 'Nordic souls' demonstrates my thesis is valid.
    I notice that you chose to quote from a freemason, Pike!
    The ancient Teutons DID use idols to represent their Gods. We know this from archaeological discoveries and literary references.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    ...Jesus himself is a mythological archetype with elements plagiarised from Indo-European sun myths.
    He is in some respects an amalgam, but not as portrayed by anti-Christian websites. He seems to be a composite of three different, contemporary individuals: a communist agitator, a revolutionary, and a reformer. The gospels may give some hint to at least two of their names: Jesus Barabbas (communist); Jesus, the disciple of John the Baptist (revolutionary). John the Baptist is "established" by the historian Josephus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    There is no qualitative difference between the terrorist techniques of ISIS and the Christianisation of the northern European peoples. This is the point which I have tried to make. The church ruled by terror, encouraging ignorance for centuries in Europe.
    What about Judaism which gave birth to both? An attack on Christianity is an attack on a proxy and injurious to the religious principle (if you don't provide a worthy substitute). An attack on Judaism, or the Old Testament, which is presently Christianity's basis of knowledge, and a wholesale condemnation on the Jewish people has more profit for people who really want to do away with Christianity and it's ethics ("philosopher" Kant) and worn out formulations for the deity (the New Order furnishes an example) and elitist priesthood (of which there is a colossal risk of paganism degenerating into. Monopolization of facts is a Jewish tendency).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    I find it incredulous and slightly amusing that you do not understand the concept of magick which is the exercise of the subjective will of the magician upon the objective world to produce an intended effect or change.
    How would anyone on here know what that means? You're the first to bring it up afaik.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Hitler understood this and his personal library contained many works on magick and the occult, heavily annotated by his own hand.
    Cite some examples, I'm sure it would have been mentioned by Timothy W. Ryback. Neither List nor Liebenfels are mentioned in his book. A fatal omission?

    Your favorite author Goodrick-Clarke said, “A single Lanz monograph, Das Buch der Psalmen teutsch (1926), stands among the surviving 2,000 volumes of Hider's personal library, but this is neither conclusive evidence that the book was read nor does it essentially relate to Lanz's ideology, being a later liturgical work.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    The connection between Ariosophy has already been established by both Goodrick-Clarke and most especially by Kurlander. It is not necessary for me to establish a connection directly between theosophy and Hitler, merely that there is an Ariosophical influence which has been well established.

    With regard to root races why would Hitler speak about such things openly to a Christian electorate? How would THAT consolidate his position and power over the German people?
    You rave on and on about so-called facts being “established”. Well, it's also “established” that theosophy influenced Arisophy so it's necessary to make the connection.

    Well he didn't bring it up in his private discussions either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    That to me is indicative of a lack of internal discipline and a short attention span. Nothing in life can be achieved by short cuts.
    So Hitler had a lack of internal discipline and a short attention span in his reading? I'm merely emulating his reading methods. There's ample testimony of Hitler's faculty of concentration. It's what enabled him to exert influence over the German people. It has nothing to do with the supernatural or occultism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    I have not denied he is an academic. I have merely questioned his relevance to the issues that we are discussing?
    We're discussing Hitler's influences. Weikart wrote a whole book on the matter. Not only does he distance Hitler from Christianity (his primary goal), but also from paganism and occultism (he didn't have to).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    There would have been nothing more embarrassing or damaging to Hitler politically for him to openly support what would have been viewed as fringe beliefs and 'cranks'. This is why his public speeches are often at odds with his private conversations. They were sheer propaganda.
    Public speeches were geared towards Christians up until the 1930s, after which he begins to emphasize self-help, self-reliance. This was not “sheer propaganda”. The maxim god helps those who helps themselves (antithesis to Christian teaching) is frequently invoked publicly, occurring even in the table talks. In one or two untranslated speeches, he explicitly identifies it with his religious belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    In any religion or magickal order there is an inner and an outer order, an esoteric and an exoteric. Kurlander has demonstrated to a much greater degree the link between von Liebenfels and Hitler than Goodrick-Clarke as his scholarship is far more recent and extensive.
    And Kurlander just happens to be a popular Jewish surname.

    I find it hard to take seriously someone who wants to make a movie adaptation of his own book: http://mybookthemovie.blogspot.com/2...-monsters.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Where is your evidence that Ernst Wachler was a Jew? Goodrick-Clarke stated that he was voelkisch author and the founder of an open-air Germanic theatre in the Harz mountains. (page 43) Your accusation appears to be unlikely. I can find any reference to a Moritz Altschueler. Whilst Reichstein is repeatedly mentioned by Goodrick-Clarke he gives no indication in his book that he is a Jew. He was a voelkisch author and publisher. Again you appear to be making claims not based upon evidence.
    From Uwe Puschner's book (mentioned on the wiki):

    “Sein Vater war der Generalstaatsanwalt Ludwig Wachler, seine Mutter die im jugendlichem Alter von Judentum zum Protestantismus konvertierte Marie Fürst.”

    Concerning Moritz:
    “Moritz Altschuler, the rabbinical scholar who was a member of the List Society and edited the Vierte~ahrsschnftfur Bibelkunde.” (Goodrick-Clarke)

    Concerning Reichstein:
    The guy with a Jewish sounding surname just happens to write a book on the Kabbalah (can be found online). Goodrich-Clarke notes that “almost nothing is known about his youth or experience” but despite this profound lack of background, Lanz appointed him as his publisher.

    Incidentally, Goodrick-Clarke also mentions an Arthur Schulz. I could go on and on about these individuals, but it's undeniable that Jews were involved in Ariosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    What is the relevance of your question? Speer was a senior Minister in Hitler's cabinet, one of the most prominent in the Reich. What he thus had to say after the war was thus highly important although not necessarily fully truthful.
    Giesler was Speer's rival and also favored by Hitler. Testimony of Speer must be balanced with Giesler's. Yet historians neglect to mention Giesler. That demonstrates a fatal bias, or as you put it, their interpretations are on par with an “average opinionated taxi driver.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    In terms of who I will 'quote from' I will be the judge of that, not you. I am not and never have been an 'NS representative'. My work and goals are spiritual in nature, not political. Likewise I have never maintained that I am a 'nationalist'. Questioning a prevailing narrative does not make one 'subversive' but a person who has the ability to think for himself. This is the problem with mass movements-you have to leave your brains at the door to enter therein.
    You remind me of the apostle Paul, who put his private notions beyond argument by claiming divine inspiration and masqueraded his political goals by witnessing to himself as a spiritual worker.

    “Every great and comprehensive theory which affects the foundations of human science, and which, consequently, influences the systems of philosophy, will, in the first place, not only further our theoretical views of the universe, but will also react on practical philosophy ethics, and the correlated provinces of religion and politics.” - Ernst Haeckel

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Tacitus did NOT say that they were "racially conscious". He said that they were of unmixed stock. The reason for this is not to be found in any racial doctrine but their lack of proximity to other races! In fact have you actually read Germania?
    A recognition of differences between races is in itself a racial doctrine. It can be read in Akhenaten's Hymn to Aten and Plato's Critias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    The Egyptians not eating bread with the Hebrews is not evidence of 'racial consciousness'. the Teutons unlike the Egyptians (who DID encounter other races) did not live in close proximity to other races.
    Then what is racial segregation in America supposed to have been? It's indisputably racialism. It's tantamount to not sharing bus seats with black people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Rosenberg was a racialist and his work is hardly free of subjectivity and bias. It is not a work that one could use to illustrate an argument objectively with although I have read it (from cover to cover) and occasionally refer to. The grip that the semitic religion of Christianity still has on 'Nordic souls' demonstrates my thesis is valid.
    He certainly didn't merit the title of a philosopher, but he had a good handle on the emotional energy he transcribed into his work. Despite my personal contempt for him, I must admit that it's a living, breathing work, much more inspiration than what a historian has to offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    I notice that you chose to quote from a freemason, Pike!
    His affinity is irrelevant, Pike affirms the necessity of work and a continued existence after death. A positive attitude towards life matters more than belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    The ancient Teutons DID use idols to represent their Gods. We know this from archaeological discoveries and literary references.
    That contradicts Tacitus' assertion.

    The Germans do not, however, deem it consistent with the divine majesty to imprison their gods within walls or represent them with anything like human features.

    What archaeologists dig up probably pertain to pre-Germanic peoples.

    Besides, did Hitler pay respect to any idols or temples? No, he spent his youth in the woods and open fields. After watching a performance of Wagner's Rienzi, he climbed up a mountain and was said to have experienced something like a religious conversion which prompted him to become a politician.

    “The customs which I know the Persians to observe are the following: they have no images of the gods, no temples nor altars, and consider the use of them a sign of folly... Their wont, however, is to ascend the summits of the loftiest mountains,” - Herodotus

    “The [ancient German's] holy places are the woods and groves, and they call by the name of god that hidden presence which is seen only by the eye of reverence.” - Tacitus

  8. #28
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    Icarus He is in some respects an amalgam, but not as portrayed by anti-Christian websites. He seems to be a composite of three different, contemporary individuals: a communist agitator, a revolutionary, and a reformer. The gospels may give some hint to at least two of their names: Jesus Barabbas (communist); Jesus, the disciple of John the Baptist (revolutionary). John the Baptist is "established" by the historian Josephus.
    You are approaching the character of Jesus from the perspective of an amalgam of other historical persons. I am not doubting the validity of your interpretation but I am looking at it from a different perspective. The 'Christ' aspect of Jesus is most certainly a mishmash of mythological archetypes, mainly borrowed from Indo-European mythologies. There are several interesting books on this issue which I can recommend-Aryan Sun Myths. The Origin of Religions by Sarah E. Titcomb, introduction by Charles Morris, an old work from 1889 but still relevant and also Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled by Acharya S, published in 2004.
    Josephus was not in a position to 'establish' the historicity of John the Baptist for he was not born until 37CE! Thus Josephus's 'evidence' can only be judged to be hearsay: it is not contemporary.

    Icarus. What about Judaism which gave birth to both? An attack on Christianity is an attack on a proxy and injurious to the religious principle (if you don't provide a worthy substitute). An attack on Judaism, or the Old Testament, which is presently Christianity's basis of knowledge, and a wholesale condemnation on the Jewish people has more profit for people who really want to do away with Christianity and it's ethics ("philosopher" Kant) and worn out formulations for the deity (the New Order furnishes an example) and elitist priesthood (of which there is a colossal risk of paganism degenerating into. Monopolization of facts is a Jewish tendency).
    Yes, I acknowledge that both Christianity and Islam are branches of the Judaism tree but it is not Judaism as such that has been imposed by force upon the peoples of northern Europe but Christianity. Indeed I would go further and say that Christianity has emasculated our peoples to a much greater extent than Islam or Judaism could ever have done.

    Icarus
    Cite some examples, I'm sure it would have been mentioned by Timothy W. Ryback. Neither List nor Liebenfels are mentioned in his book. A fatal omission?

    Your favorite author Goodrick-Clarke said, “A single Lanz monograph, Das Buch der Psalmen teutsch (1926), stands among the surviving 2,000 volumes of Hider's personal library, but this is neither conclusive evidence that the book was read nor does it essentially relate to Lanz's ideology, being a later liturgical work.”
    Hitler had 3 libraries and literally thousands of books. Not all of the books that Hitler read in his youth would still be in his possession at the age of 56. I have given away far more books than I now own and I have thousands on my shelves. One's tastes and reading habits change over the years. I have not read Ryback's book but I would doubt that his book actually catalogues all those works found in all of those libraries! Regarding von Liebenfels Das Buch der Psalmen teutsch: Das Gebetbuch der Ariosophen, Rassenmystiker und Antisimiten you are incorrect as the subtitle of the book indicates. Hitler therefore possessed a clearly Ariosophical work. It is a pity that you did not research this before you posted your comment!
    One other example that I can make you aware of is Ernst Schertel's Magic: History, Theory, Practice which was heavily annotated by Hitler.

    Icarus
    You rave on and on about so-called facts being “established”. Well, it's also “established” that theosophy influenced Arisophy so it's necessary to make the connection.
    Well he didn't bring it up in his private discussions either.
    I do not need to make a 'connection' between Hitler and Theosophy as Theosophy had a direct influence on Ariosophy via the work and research of Guido von List. Hitler's private discussions were recorded in the 1940s. The period in which Hitler would have been exposed to Ariosophical work was in the 1910s! I very seldom mention in my private discussions events of some 30 years before!

    Icarus
    So Hitler had a lack of internal discipline and a short attention span in his reading? I'm merely emulating his reading methods. There's ample testimony of Hitler's faculty of concentration. It's what enabled him to exert influence over the German people. It has nothing to do with the supernatural or occultism.
    YOU do not know what Hitler's 'reading methods' were! Indeed it is clear that Hitler did read books from cover to cover as many are heavily annotated. However that does not detract in any way from what I have said. Short attention span and lack of internal discipline! How do YOU know what forces and abilities Hitler drew upon to influence the masses?

    Icarus
    We're discussing Hitler's influences. Weikart wrote a whole book on the matter. Not only does he distance Hitler from Christianity (his primary goal), but also from paganism and occultism (he didn't have to).
    Again you have clear difficulties in separating religion from the occult. Can you point out to me ANYWHERE in my posts where I have stated that Hitler was a 'pagan' or a heathen?

    Icarus
    Public speeches were geared towards Christians up until the 1930s, after which he begins to emphasize self-help, self-reliance. This was not “sheer propaganda”. The maxim god helps those who helps themselves (antithesis to Christian teaching) is frequently invoked publicly, occurring even in the table talks. In one or two untranslated speeches, he explicitly identifies it with his religious belief.
    None of this gainsays my argument that Hitler's apparent pandering to the Christian 'god' was purely for public consumption and was empty of any verity.

    Icarus
    And Kurlander just happens to be a popular Jewish surname.

    I find it hard to take seriously someone who wants to make a movie adaptation of his own book:
    http://mybookthemovie.blogspot.com/2...-monsters.html
    You seem to have rather an obsession for hunting 'Jewish' surnames! Dr Kurlander has a BA, MA and PhD. Are you as well qualified as that? Dr Kurlander is merely dreaming of making his book into a film. You seem to be taking this literally! Even an academic may dream! As far as his surname is concerned there is no evidence that this is solely or primarily a Jewish surname. The man's phenotype looks distinctly non-Jewish in my opinion. Using your 'logic' then one would have to assume that Alfred Rosenberg was also a 'Jew' then? Many Jewish looking surnames were used by non-Jews as well. Many of my paternal ancestors had Abram and Abraham as a surname which is a locational name from Lancashire in northwest England. Does that make me a 'Jew' also? My mother's surname was Bock from the Harz Mountains. There are Jews with that surname as well so again does that make me a 'Jew'?

    Icarus
    From Uwe Puschner's book (mentioned on the wiki):

    “Sein Vater war der Generalstaatsanwalt Ludwig Wachler, seine Mutter die im jugendlichem Alter
    von Judentum
    zum Protestantismus konvertierte Marie Fürst.”

    Wachler is stated as being an "anti-Semitic writer, dramatist and publicist". Whether his mother had any Jewish ancestry I am not in a position to confirm or deny but he was clearly voelkisch and anti-Semitic. Make of that what you will. I dare say that if you care to do any digging you will find plenty of people of some Jewish ancestry at the highest levels of the Third Reich and many were tolerated and patronised by the likes of Hitler if they had some merit. Not all Jews are racially Jewish but their ancestors were converted to Judaism centuries ago. If this is the case then how can someone who is neither racially, religiously or culturally Jewish be regarded as 'Jewish'?
    Regarding Altschuler I still cannot find him in Goodrick-Clarke's book. On what page is he mentioned?

    Icarus
    You remind me of the apostle Paul, who put his private notions beyond argument by claiming divine inspiration and masqueraded his political goals by witnessing to himself as a spiritual worker.

    “Every great and comprehensive theory which affects the foundations of human science, and which, consequently, influences the systems of philosophy, will, in the first place, not only further our theoretical views of the universe, but will also react on practical philosophy ethics, and the correlated provinces of religion and politics.” - Ernst Haeckel
    I repeat-my goal is the spiritual re-awakening of the Germanic peoples, that they may hear the Call of the Gods. No political progress can be made without a spiritual and philosophical basis. This is one important lesson that we learn from the voelkisch awakening in late 19th century Germany and Austria.

    Icarus
    A recognition of differences between races is in itself a racial doctrine. It can be read in Akhenaten's Hymn to Aten and Plato's Critias.
    The lesser or the greater hymn?
    I do not doubt that ancient Egypt had a racial awareness for they clearly interacted with other diverse races but this was not the case in Germania. There is no evidence from Tacitus that Teutons were racially aware. They would not have entertained any such notions for they knew no one but people of their own race.

    Icarus
    Then what is racial segregation in America supposed to have been? It's indisputably racialism. It's tantamount to not sharing bus seats with black people.
    Indeed in Germany Jesse Owens was not required to sit at the back of a bus! A man that was regarded as a hero until he returned to the USA! The USA is not Germania. Germania did not have African slaves or Red Indians living within its boundaries. Your attempted comparison of the two is faulty to say the least.

    Icarus
    He certainly didn't merit the title of a philosopher, but he had a good handle on the emotional energy he transcribed into his work. Despite my personal contempt for him, I must admit that it's a living, breathing work, much more inspiration than what a historian has to offer.
    Why 'contempt'?

    Icarus
    His affinity is irrelevant, Pike affirms the necessity of work and a continued existence after death. A positive attitude towards life matters more than belief.
    Ditto Kurlander and your unsubstantiated allegation that he is 'Jewish'!
    Icarus
    That contradicts Tacitus' assertion.

    The Germans do not, however, deem it consistent with the divine majesty to imprison their gods within walls or represent them with anything like human features.


    What archaeologists dig up probably pertain to pre-Germanic peoples.

    Besides, did Hitler pay respect to any idols or temples? No, he spent his youth in the woods and open fields. After watching a performance of Wagner's Rienzi, he climbed up a mountain and was said to have experienced something like a religious conversion which prompted him to become a politician.

    “The customs which I know the Persians to observe are the following:
    they have no images of the gods, no temples nor altars
    , and consider the use of them a sign of folly... Their wont, however, is to
    ascend the summits of the loftiest mountains
    ,” - Herodotus

    “The [ancient German's] holy places are the woods and groves
    , and they call by the name of god that hidden presence which is seen only by the eye of reverence.” - Tacitus
    I addressed this issue 4 years ago on my Celto-Germanic Culture, Myth and History blog: http://celto-germanic.blogspot.com/2...-germanic.html
    Tacitus NEVER travelled to Germania so the construction of his Germania is based on second hand and possibly third hand accounts. It is also clear that Tacitus wrote many of his historical work as a polemic on what he saw as Roman 'degeneracy'. Germania is a classic example of this.
    Once again I have NEVER made the argument that Hitler was a 'pagan' or a heathen. You keep misrepresenting or misinterpreting my arguments.

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    Re: Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    You are approaching the character of Jesus from the perspective of an amalgam of other historical persons. I am not doubting the validity of your interpretation but I am looking at it from a different perspective. The 'Christ' aspect of Jesus is most certainly a mishmash of mythological archetypes, mainly borrowed from Indo-European mythologies.
    Looks like we won't be able to get anywhere on this subject. No one else seems to want to make the case for Jesus' existence. I was hoping to furnish Christians with some interesting arguments to build upon. Guess I'll just drop it for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Yes, I acknowledge that both Christianity and Islam are branches of the Judaism tree but it is not Judaism as such that has been imposed by force upon the peoples of northern Europe but Christianity. Indeed I would go further and say that Christianity has emasculated our peoples to a much greater extent than Islam or Judaism could ever have done.
    I find it credulous that you consider Christianity as the greater threat when it's clearly on the wane. It IS in fact Judaism that has been imposed by force upon the Nordic peoples and the whole wide world.

    How many authors shall I invoke for their indictment of Christianity as a direct form of Judaism? Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Haeckel, Giselher Wirsing, Coudenhove-Kalergi, Marx, Werner Sombart, Julian, Porphyry, Lucian of Samosota, etc. Even the Church Father Origen and Islam founder Mohammed made the connection.

    Why do you think the classical authors (i.e. Julian, Porphyry, Celsus) found it necessary to criticize Judaism in their attacks on Christianity? Because Judaism is the de facto foundation of Christianity. Even the Jews testify of this and emphasize it in the media (i.e. the film Agora has a scene where a Jewish rabbi tears his prayer shawl and insists that Jesus was a Jew and what amounts to the declaration that the Christians owe them). Today's modern philosophy has deviated from this reliable tried and true method and is dangerously atheistic, even if it claims to uphold paganism, occultism, spirituality, etc.

    Furthermore, occultists (i.e. Max Heindel, Alice A. Bailey) color their presentations in colorful Christian language with the specific aim of mixing out the Jews through assimilation. Also, they tend to look upon the Jewish Essenes in a rosy light (i.e. Edgar Cayce, Manly P. Hall, Rudolf Steiner). Occultists have usually set themselves against the German people. Leadbeater in The Hidden Side of Christian Festivals furnishes the best example. Having been swayed by WW1 atrocity propaganda, he attempted to justify the physical disappearance of Germans. It's interesting to read his conversation with German statesman Bismarck about WW1. Bismarck argued that Germany was closer to the hierarchical ideals than the democratic states.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Hitler had 3 libraries and literally thousands of books. Not all of the books that Hitler read in his youth would still be in his possession at the age of 56. I have given away far more books than I now own and I have thousands on my shelves. One's tastes and reading habits change over the years. I have not read Ryback's book but I would doubt that his book actually catalogues all those works found in all of those libraries!
    Kubizek never mentioned anything about Hitler reading occultist books in his youth. He said Hitler deferred to books about German myths, ergo books about German heroes.

    "One's tastes and reading habits change over the years." So if he really had read occultist literature, he evidently dropped it very early.

    Incidentally, he did read Goethe's Faust (he explicitly quotes a passage from it in Mein Kampf), which far surpasses all other occult literature in the first place. But I wonder how many occultists even acknowledge it's significance. Truly esoteric literature effects invention and discovery. I.e. Nikola Tesla being struck with the idea of the rotating magnetic field from meditating on Goethe's Faust. Or Thales of Miletus' maxim about magnets influencing William Gilbert, the father of electricity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Regarding von Liebenfels Das Buch der Psalmen teutsch: Das Gebetbuch der Ariosophen, Rassenmystiker und Antisimiten you are incorrect as the subtitle of the book indicates. Hitler therefore possessed a clearly Ariosophical work. It is a pity that you did not research this before you posted your comment!
    And it's a pity you didn't read what Goodrick-Clarke wrote. It doesn't matter whether Hitler possessed a book. He was gifted plenty of them or only read them superficially (i.e. Rosenberg's Der Mythus).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    One other example that I can make you aware of is Ernst Schertel's Magic: History, Theory, Practice which was heavily annotated by Hitler.
    Did you get that off the wiki, which links to an article from The Atlantic? You're exaggerating with the expression "heavily annotated" (which is probably from hearsay or an encyclopedia), which can apply to pretty much any book in his library. There is only one instance where Ryback specifically implies that and none of them involved the occult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryback
    In this third section there is a considerable part devoted to nutrition and diet. In fact, there are probably a thousand books on this subject, many of them heavily marginated, those marginal comments including the vegetarian observation
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ibrary/302727/
    One of the most heavily marked books is Magic: History, Theory and Practice (1923), by Ernst Schertel. When I typed the author's name into one Internet search engine, I scored eight hits, including sites on Satanism, eroticism, sadomasochism, and flagellation. When I typed his name into Google, I scored twenty-six hits, including sites on parapsychology, astrology, and diverse sexual practices. According to a Web site for Germany's sadomasochistic community, Schertel wrote numerous books on flagellation and eroticism, and was "a central figure" in the German nudist movement of the 1920s and 1930s.
    This article from Ryback is clearly calculated to stigmatize Hitler as a sexual deviant. Why not read Ryback's actual book in order to confirm this?

    Ryback mentions that,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryback
    Hitler has marked a passage in which Schertel cites Schleich, quoting almost verbatim from him: “Our body presents a collection of potential and kinetic world energies and extends beyond to other lineages through animals, plants and crystal down to the very beginning of things.” Hitler’s pencil traces the passage in the margin. “In our body rests the entire history of the world, beginning with the birth of the first star. Through our body flows the energies of the universe, from the eternal to the eternal. And these drive the mills of our existence.”
    First of all, Schertel was merely quoting from the non-occultist Carl Ludwig Schleich, so it's not even his own original idea.

    Ryback argues that Hitler reiterated this in his own words (and he identifies it as pantheistic, not occultist! Same conclusion as Weikart) in a December 1941 table talk conversion, but he overlooks that Hitler was talking about the Japanese view of afterlife, not his own private beliefs, as Richard C. Carrier (although by no means unbiased and correct in his own conclusion) points out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryback
    On page 43 [of Max Riedel's "Law of the World"], Hitler highlights a passage affirming what he had previously encountered in his readings of Schleich and Schertel: “The body, mind and soul do not belong to the individual, they belong to the universe.”
    Again, this is pantheism, not occultism.

    Even if Hitler had imbibed ideas from Schertel, that doesn't make him an occultist's disciple. He came across all kinds of zany and bizarre ideas (i.e. Odic force) which he took into consideration, he was merely open-minded. He even listened to a lecture from Einstein and was fascinated with a theory about electricity from possible Jew Goldzier. The only thing that's remotely occult which can be definitely "established" is his devotion to Hörbiger's theories, which is also attested to by Goebbels and Heinrich Himmler. It was not to snub Einstein.

    Schopenhauer, who influenced Hitler, explicitly denounced pantheism, sometimes venturing that it was merely a polite term for atheism. It's well-known that Hitler had digested and quoted long passages from Schopenhauer, word for word.

    Finally, I found absolutely no mention of Schertel in Goodrick-Clarke's books. So Schertel wasn't even considered a significant influence!

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    Re: Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    I do not need to make a 'connection' between Hitler and Theosophy as Theosophy had a direct influence on Ariosophy via the work and research of Guido von List. Hitler's private discussions were recorded in the 1940s. The period in which Hitler would have been exposed to Ariosophical work was in the 1910s! I very seldom mention in my private discussions events of some 30 years before!
    So you think by placing his alleged "discoveries" in a time frame where he himself produced no works, your private notions are out of reach and infallible?

    Then explain Hitler's private notes from the 1920s, just about 10 years after this alleged period of occultic immersion. https://archive.org/stream/hitlers-l.../n287/mode/2up He clearly derives both his anti-Semitism and racialism ("first people's history based on race") from the Old Testament history. This is also backed up by his 1922 speech "Why we are antisemites" where he answers that question by referencing the Old Testament (i.e. Gen. 3:15). Furthermore, his notes were drawn up in private, not public. Why would he have needed to conceal any reference to the occult (i.e. Lanz) here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    YOU do not know what Hitler's 'reading methods' were! Indeed it is clear that Hitler did read books from cover to cover as many are heavily annotated. However that does not detract in any way from what I have said. Short attention span and lack of internal discipline!

    How do YOU know what forces and abilities Hitler drew upon to influence the masses?
    I do know, he mentioned it in Mein Kampf. Historians and former associates defer to his boasts about his "selective reading".

    I heard reports from reliable confidants and witnesses (i.e. Otto Wagener, G. Ward Price), people who were actually standing next to Hitler in his oratory (i.e. Ernst Hanfstaengl) or in the enthused crowds of Germans (i.e. Leni Riefenstahl) and pieced it all together. Then I sought out examples from antiquity and direct statements from Hitler. Hitler's oratory required huge concentrations of energy for his concentration, which he was in a position to do in view of his abstinence from meat, alcohol, tobacco, and marriage. There is nothing supernatural or occult about it. I suppose you could say that there was something superphysical about it, as he reports that it was not always him doing the talking and Kubizek indicated that he had encountered a different Hitler in the Rienzi experience. Riefenstahl distinguishes between the private Hitler and the Hitler of the Sportspalast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Again you have clear difficulties in separating religion from the occult. Can you point out to me ANYWHERE in my posts where I have stated that Hitler was a 'pagan' or a heathen?
    You tend to blur out the distinction between paganism and occultism when it does not suit you. You clearly advocate paganism and your interests reflect that of paganism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    None of this gainsays my argument that Hitler's apparent pandering to the Christian 'god' was purely for public consumption and was empty of any verity.
    In the Table Talks, Hitler maintained that Christ was not a Jew and that Christ was a fighter up to the year 1944.

    Also, you still haven't refuted this speech, which was never addressed to Christians and wasn't one of his early speeches. It also furnishes insight into Hitler's religious monism (or in theological terms, creatio ex materia) with the statement that suns and planets consist of the same one material, which is also reiterated in 1941 Table Talk entries October 14 and 24.

    Hence the National Socialist Movement will not tolerate subversion by occult mystics in search of an afterlife. They are not National Socialists but something different, and in any event, they represent something that has nothing to do with us. - Hitler, September 6, 1938

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    You seem to have rather an obsession for hunting 'Jewish' surnames! Dr Kurlander has a BA, MA and PhD. Are you as well qualified as that? Dr Kurlander is merely dreaming of making his book into a film. You seem to be taking this literally! Even an academic may dream! As far as his surname is concerned there is no evidence that this is solely or primarily a Jewish surname. The man's phenotype looks distinctly non-Jewish in my opinion. Using your 'logic' then one would have to assume that Alfred Rosenberg was also a 'Jew' then? Many Jewish looking surnames were used by non-Jews as well. Many of my paternal ancestors had Abram and Abraham as a surname which is a locational name from Lancashire in northwest England. Does that make me a 'Jew' also? My mother's surname was Bock from the Harz Mountains. There are Jews with that surname as well so again does that make me a 'Jew'?
    Just being cautious. You and your hero Lanz seem to unconditionally accept anything that may be of avail to the cause. Even the founder of the Bavarian Illuminati made his careful background checks.

    Let's hear from other Skadi posters about the man's phenotype before jumping to any conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Wachler is stated as being an "anti-Semitic writer, dramatist and publicist". Whether his mother had any Jewish ancestry I am not in a position to confirm or deny but he was clearly voelkisch and anti-Semitic. Make of that what you will. I dare say that if you care to do any digging you will find plenty of people of some Jewish ancestry at the highest levels of the Third Reich and many were tolerated and patronised by the likes of Hitler if they had some merit. Not all Jews are racially Jewish but their ancestors were converted to Judaism centuries ago. If this is the case then how can someone who is neither racially, religiously or culturally Jewish be regarded as 'Jewish'?
    Regarding Altschuler I still cannot find him in Goodrick-Clarke's book. On what page is he mentioned?
    The liberal editors of wikipedia insist that he was a Jew. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arioso..._Armanen_Order

    In my pdf copy, it's printed page is 99, but the pdf's page is 110.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    I repeat-my goal is the spiritual re-awakening of the Germanic peoples, that they may hear the Call of the Gods. No political progress can be made without a spiritual and philosophical basis. This is one important lesson that we learn from the voelkisch awakening in late 19th century Germany and Austria.
    How does one "hear call of the gods"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    The lesser or the greater hymn?
    I do not doubt that ancient Egypt had a racial awareness for they clearly interacted with other diverse races but this was not the case in Germania. There is no evidence from Tacitus that Teutons were racially aware. They would not have entertained any such notions for they knew no one but people of their own race.
    Greater.

    I find it strange that you reject racial consciousness being manifested specifically in ancient Germany. Hitler taught that the cultural creative ability was dormant in the ancient Germans. What is this expression referring to but racial consciousness in it's purest form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Indeed in Germany Jesse Owens was not required to sit at the back of a bus! A man that was regarded as a hero until he returned to the USA! The USA is not Germania. Germania did not have African slaves or Red Indians living within its boundaries. Your attempted comparison of the two is faulty to say the least.
    You argued that "The Egyptians not eating bread with the Hebrews is not evidence of 'racial consciousness'." I refuted that with my example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Why 'contempt'?
    He upholds Kant as a German Plato and dismisses Pythagoras as an Oriental occult phenomenon, tantamount to the modern theosophists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Ditto Kurlander and your unsubstantiated allegation that he is 'Jewish'!
    I'll see if I can acquire a copy of his book so I can see for myself what he's on about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Tacitus does contradict himself as elsewhere in Germania 40 he refers to the sacred grove of Nerthus and the implication is that She was represented by an image, cared for by Her priest. Perhaps Her image was more elaborate than that of the Pole Gods.
    Not necessarily a contradiction or even remotely an implication of an idol.

    "The priest perceives the presence of the goddess in this holy of holies and attends her, in deepest reverence, as her cart is drawn by heifers."

    "Their holy places are the woods and groves, and they call by the name of god that hidden presence which is seen only by the eye of reverence."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Once again I have NEVER made the argument that Hitler was a 'pagan' or a heathen. You keep misrepresenting or misinterpreting my arguments.
    Then what was he? An occultist quack? A pantheist? You should make it more clear and explicit. Was he a direct disciple of Lanz or not?

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