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Thread: Was Hitler the Man of the Catholic Church?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    And as to music, Richard Wagner was a Christian. As were the large majority of all renowned composers in history.
    This is just blatant cultural appropriation, an overreaction if you will. The truly renowned composers were neither the merit of Christianity nor paganism. Mozart was already acquainted with the art of composition from a very young age long before he had been educated in the matter. From an early age, Julian was driven by a passionate interest in the Sun before he had been introduced to the sciences concerning it. It's in youth that people lay down their creative possibilities, as attested by Nikola Tesla.

    Besides, if Wagner were Christian, then his anti-Semitism wouldn't have been so groundbreaking. This NYT article underscores the difference between the anti-Semitism of the Middle Ages and the modern anti-Semitism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    Every [/I]judgement of conscience, be it right or wrong, be it about things evil in themselves or morally indifferent, is obligatory, in such wise that he who acts against his conscience always sins."
    ~ Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church
    How would you reconcile that with Martin Luther's statement?

    "Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes."

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    And yet, even today in this age of confusion, Christians are still overwhelmingly conservatives and right-wingers. That's why America has Trump, while Canada has Trudeau.
    Hence, they are not truly revolutionary. If they really oppose the present status quo, that is only because they want to supplant it with their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    The death of Christianity equals the end of all morals.

    Certainly, we could also arrive at the truth by reason alone, but history shows that this is simply too much demanded for almost all men. Our statesmen can't even speak three sentences without falling into a logical fallacy.
    That is debatable. Germany has always had good morals as demonstrated by it's attitude towards work, peace, and good relations, with or without Christianity. They were the ones who helped Christianity into it's slightly more tolerable, non-Bolshevik form. You could even argue that secular Germany upholds Christian morals better than it did under the Church's influence. See, all they did was kick out Jesus and relegate the OT stories to history. Schopenhauer exposed Kant's ethics as being based on Judaism in consideration for the treatment of animals as objects. Historically, Christianity has not been kind to animal welfare. See 2 Kings 19:35-36 and Judges 15:4-5.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goose_pulling
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_tossing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cock_throwing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat-burning
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat_throwing

    Also, the Orient has never suffered a shortage of superior ethics. We can thank Mohammed for halting the Jewish advance in the East and crippling their capacity to undermine the Oriental man.

    The Church Father Origen made a similar argument, is that who you had in mind? So then you would concur with Hitler's naive belief that minority leads, majority follows? The majority is gradually undergoing a profound change which will enable it to erase it's historic shortcomings and embrace truths collectively. Until that moment arises, the Church and it's authority can persist as a substitute, but it wasn't meant to last forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    Much progress have we made since 1942. In the West, the confusion caused by relativism and the denial of God is nearly complete.
    The confusion is caused by a diverse and unchecked spread of innumerable ideologies that are in error or end up subverted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    People don't even know anymore to which gender they belong.
    That's been reported as early as the 5th century (Pseudo-Methodius) and in the older Hindu literature. The historic Christian response has been to condemn them to hellfire or neglect any inquiries into the phenomenon on the basis of John 9:1-3 (C. S. Lewis).

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    Or what is right and wrong.
    That is largely due to the education system. Instead of being made familiar with laws and how government works, people have to waste their time on subjects that don't interest them or memorizing scattered trivia about history, which is basically a gigantic fiction construct. Religion and science being taught simultaneously in the same schools adds to the confusion, since most people are unable to reconcile the apparent contradictions and end up picking either one or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    "Whatever sets man above the beast, whether we call it 'mind' [mens] or 'spirit' [spiritus] or, more correctly, both since we find both terms in Scriptures, if this rules over and commands the other parts that make up man, then man's life is in perfect order [tunc esse hominem ordinatissimum]. . . . We are to think of a man well-ordered, therefore, when his reason rules over these movements of the soul, for we must not speak of right order, or of order at all, when the more perfect is made subject to the less perfect. . . . It follows, therefore, that when reason, [ratio] or mind [mens], or spirit [spiritus], rules over the irrational movements of the soul, then that is in control in man which ought to be, by virtue of the natural law which we found to be eternal."
    ~ St. Augustine, Bishop of Alexandria, De Diversis Questionibus Octoginta Tribus, 395 AD
    Intelligence is not what distinguishes man from animal. We have competitors in crows, apes, dolphins, parrots, etc. Only the principle of work as a necessity is what has made man retain his dominion over the animal kingdom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    "Abu Umama narrated: "The Messenger of God said, 'Everyone that God admits into paradise will be married to 72 wives; two of them are houris and seventy of his inheritance of the [female] dwellers of hell. All of them will have libidinous sex organs and he will have an ever-erect penis.'""
    ~ Sunan Ibn Majah, Book 39
    Of course his soldiers would have been willing to die for that, it's more realistic.

    What's wrong with polygamy (when it is not left unchecked)? German Christians had no problems resorting to it after the Thirty Year War. Plus there are plenty of Christian prophecies that talk about seven women taking one man as their husband, which can also be found in the Quran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    I seek no quarrel with Christians who care for their race and folk.
    So pretty much every Christian who's posted on this forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Religion is of course a private matter and we heathens seek no converts. Either a man or woman hears the Call of the Gods or they don't as long as they hear the Call of the Blood.
    I've seen you making propaganda for your cause for the past week rather persistently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    My reasoning for posting these words of Hitler was to demonstrate Hitler's true and private thoughts on the Christian religion which he felt had done a great deal of harm to the ancient Aryan and Germanic worlds. They are not my words! It is my opinion and the opinion of Himmler that Christianity has emasculated Aryan and Germanic man and induced a guilt complex, something which one sees in the modern German population.
    Yes he loathed Christianity, but not uncritically.

    Hitler was neither Christian nor heathen. Plus he said, "The impression which I often get, especially of those so-called religious reformers whose creed is grounded on ancient Germanic customs, is that they are the missionaries and protégés of those forces which do not wish to see a national revival taking place in Germany."

    His private ideas approximated towards Pythagorean and pre-Socratic Hellenism. He inclined towards Greek systems instead of ancient German religion since Wotanism already had it's basis of knowledge systematically destroyed by Christianity. Christianity was going the same way, being deprived of it's original brain matter (taking into account Plotinos and Porphyry's treatment of the gnostics, one should be asking whether the gnostics were just another persecuted sect or if they were the progenitors of Christianity before their namesake was appropriated by charlatans) for centuries. The mistake of all reformers is that they overlook the possibility that the narrative has become the source of corruption. Take Thomas Jefferson's "bible" for instance, where he merely omits the supernatural and miraculous, but allows "do not resist evil" to remain in place. Many of Jesus' teachings have been left embedded in unsuitable context.

    Both Christianity and Wotanism are essentially empty hollow shells, the differences between the two is merely drapery (of which very little pertains to the religious principle, which had begun out of need rather than religious feeling i.e. the obligation to climb minarets, the holidays, sanctification of dates, washing and cleaning, diet), it's the content of the system that matters the most. Either religion will work if it has the right content filling it. That's why Hitler identified himself as a materialist who was more concerned with combating Bolshevism than whether Protestantism, Catholicism, or even Islam triumphed in Germany. In the long run, the Germans would gain hegemony over the prevailing system if left unimpeded and shape it into something more rational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    At this time I found myself in a hedonistic phase of my life as I entered early middle age and studied the philosophy of the great Nietzsche. This intensified my existential crisis.
    In assessing Nietzsche's philosophy, it's important to distinguish between his early writings and the later publications. He started off from the Greek heroism but later declined as a result of lacking a sturdy basis for his ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Going back to some of the points you made, Hitler was not a Christian. He was raised a Catholic but gradually rejected his childhood indoctrination.
    He threw off Church teaching when he was still a youth (14 years old?). His views of the Church changed gradually, even at one point considering uniting the Protestants under one archbishop but later backing away from this decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    I would guess that this in part was due to the influence of the writings of Joerg Lanz von Liebenfels, the founder of Ariosophy and Ostara magazine.
    German theologian Richard Weikart cited from primary and secondary sources debunking this assertion. Neither List nor Liebenfels had a significant influence on Hitler. According to Hitler's private notes (transcribed by Werner Maser), he partly imbibed his views of racial purity from Old Testament history. Streicher even went so far to assert that the Nuremberg Laws had been modeled on the Jewish laws by Ezra. Hitler would have also been made familiar with the Jewish process of destruction from reading the works of antiquity (i.e. Julian the Apostate) and his two greatest, non-occultist influences (Schopenhauer, Nietzsche).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Wagner likewise was raised as a Christian but his lifestyle indicated that this was merely a thin cultural veneer rather than a deeply held conviction. Most of his music dramas incorporated themes from ancient German history, myth and legend.
    No argument there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Most people of his era still believed in the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth even if they did not except his claims or teachings. We now know that there is no evidence to support the concept of an historical Jesus. He never existed, Jew or not.
    He was familiar with a non-Jewish, Greek custom (Matt. 5:29), despite not mingling among Alexandrian Jews. His anti-Semitism suggests a thorough familiarity with the Jews, although the Church has never really tapped into this power but has placed it on a pedestal to be parroted. Jesus' anti-Semitism can make sense if it's put into the right context.

    Why then did the Jews loathe him for centuries, even going so far as to stigmatize him as a Samaritan, as the son of a whore and Roman soldier, and mock him for being a Galilean (no prophet comes out of Galilee). Rosenberg, who only supposedly opposed the churches, devotes entire pages in The Track of the Jew to tracing Jewish contempt for Jesus in the Talmud with their word-plays.

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    Icarus
    Why then did the Jews loathe him for centuries, even going so far as to stigmatize him as a Samaritan, as the son of a whore and Roman soldier, and mock him for being a Galilean (no prophet comes out of Galilee). Rosenberg, who only supposedly opposed the churches, devotes entire pages in The Track of the Jew to tracing Jewish contempt for Jesus in the Talmud with their word-plays
    There is no evidence whatsoever to support the notion of an historical Jesus. If you believe otherwise then the onus is upon you to furnish us with the said evidence and not rely on hearsay centuries after his supposed life and death. You cannot rely on the Gospels which are not impartial and neither are they contemporary accounts.

    Icarus
    Neither List nor Liebenfels had a significant influence on Hitler.
    You are going against scholarly opinion with that statement. They certainly affected his magickal view of the world, if not his racial and Hitler read Ostara at a young and impressionable age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
    Intelligence is not what distinguishes man from animal. We have competitors in crows, apes, dolphins, parrots, etc. Only the principle of work as a necessity is what has made man retain his dominion over the animal kingdom.
    True. The choice between doing right or wrong is what separates mankind from other animals.

    Of course his soldiers would have been willing to die for that, it's more realistic.

    What's wrong with polygamy (when it is not left unchecked)? German Christians had no problems resorting to it after the Thirty Year War. Plus there are plenty of Christian prophecies that talk about seven women taking one man as their husband, which can also be found in the Quran.
    Of course Muslims are indoctrinated to believe women are mere possessions to be used to satiate their libidos, and produce children.

    Christians, at least those who believe women are equal partners, understand there is a distinct difference between the libido and matters of the heart. So, the concept of polygamy would be (is) very difficult for them to accept, let alone actually practice.
    “A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot.” Robert A. Heinlein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    There is no evidence whatsoever to support the notion of an historical Jesus. If you believe otherwise then the onus is upon you to furnish us with the said evidence and not rely on hearsay centuries after his supposed life and death. You cannot rely on the Gospels which are not impartial and neither are they contemporary accounts.
    You could argue the same thing about any religious founder.

    So the Old Testament, which is undeniably partial, can't be used to establish historical persons either? Scholars claim the Exodus never happened, Moses existed, etc. but the Exodus plainly says Jews robbed the Egyptians and the various tributes to Moses (golden vine and a statue were found in their Temple) are mentioned by writers of antiquity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    You are going against scholarly opinion with that statement. They certainly affected his magickal view of the world, if not his racial and Hitler read Ostara at a young and impressionable age.
    The claim that Hitler had read German myths comes from Kubizek yet it's strange that Hitler would never reference these myths in writings or speeches, also preventing pagan reforms attempted by Himmler and Rosenberg.

    Hitler loathed such representatives of intelligentsia since they assimilated vast knowledge but didn't work upon the facts or integrate them into systems (he used the analogy of a mosaic when talking about the art of reading). They either left them largely unused (theoretical knowledge) or tossed them around carelessly with a holy-than-art-thou attitude (throwing pearls before the swine). They were useless for the struggle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Lee Hunter View Post
    True. The choice between doing right or wrong is what separates mankind from other animals.
    Right and wrong are social concepts which can be found in the animal kingdom. Origen cited a quote from Celsus about how ants and bees are not dissimilar from humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Lee Hunter View Post
    Of course Muslims are indoctrinated to believe women are mere possessions to be used to satiate their libidos, and produce children.
    Isn't that the first purpose of marriage, to procreate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Lee Hunter View Post
    Christians, at least those who believe women are equal partners, understand there is a distinct difference between the libido and matters of the heart. So, the concept of polygamy would be (is) very difficult for them to accept, let alone actually practice.
    Women's suffrage, slavery, etc. were championed by the churches only after Germans and other humanists had left their mark. The predominantly Catholic Spain was one of the last nations to abolish slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
    Yes, but it's a feat that he managed to secure the support of the Protestant churches. Protestants of that period were analogous to modern evangelists in their stance on the Jewish community. Germany was 2/3rd Protestant. The op overlooks this.

    Yet he never dropped his insistence that Jesus was an Aryan, not a Jew, all the way up to 1944.
    He also overlooks that Hitler was not against the Catholic Church. He was against those clergymen who tried to politicize the church and speak out against Hitler. Those clergymen were arrested and sent to concentration camps as well as a few of them being executed.
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    Icarus
    You could argue the same thing about any religious founder.

    So the Old Testament, which is undeniably partial, can't be used to establish historical persons either? Scholars claim the Exodus never happened, Moses existed, etc. but the Exodus plainly says Jews robbed the Egyptians and the various tributes to Moses (golden vine and a statue were found in their Temple) are mentioned by writers of antiquity.
    You are deflecting from the issue. I have asked you to furnish evidence to support the theory that Jesus of Nazareth was an historical figure. You have not done so; therefore I must conclude that you are unable to do so because there isn't any. I am well aware that religious movements can be founded on mythical or legendary persons but Christian doctrine requires of its adherents to believe in the physical incarnation of Jesus-a concept that is not supported by historical evidence.

    Icarus
    The claim that Hitler had read German myths comes from Kubizek yet it's strange that Hitler would never reference these myths in writings or speeches, also preventing pagan reforms attempted by Himmler and Rosenberg.

    Hitler loathed such representatives of intelligentsia since they assimilated vast knowledge but didn't work upon the facts or integrate them into systems (he used the analogy of a mosaic when talking about the art of reading). They either left them largely unused (theoretical knowledge) or tossed them around carelessly with a holy-than-art-thou attitude (throwing pearls before the swine). They were useless for the struggle.
    First of all you are misrepresenting what I have said. I referred to the influence that von Liebenfels and von List had upon the MAGICKAL worldview of Hitler. I did not refer to his views on mythology. By any case von Liebenfels was not by any stretch of the imagination a proponent of the Old Gods. The influence of these two people on Hitler is documented in Dr Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's The Occult Roots of Nazism. Secret Aryan Cults and their Influence on Nazi Ideology, 1985 and Hitler's Monsters: A Supernatural History of the Third Reich, 2017 by Eric Kurlander which goes into painstaking detail on this very issue.
    I keep saying this and I will say it again; Germany was a Christian country. Openly discussing issues relating to the Occult would have been extremely counterproductive.

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    "Protestant churches" ?
    I would put emphasis on "Lutheran" churches. Don't forget Luther's book "Die Juden und ihre Luegen"


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    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    "Protestant churches" ?
    I would put emphasis on "Lutheran" churches. Don't forget Luther's book "Die Juden und ihre Luegen"

    Interesting when you think about it. What a paradox! A man who hated the Jews and his 'saviour' was one!

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