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Thread: My Religious Worldview: a Basic Moral Collection for the Post-Christian World

  1. #21
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    I've not said that we should live in sin without consequence, but our God is a merciful God who gives peoples the chance to repent from their sins and a fair chance to live a honorable life. The main message of Christianity is obtaining salvation and eternal life. All of us are sinners, we all break the Lord's commandments. But if we are repentant, God grants us forgiveness and it's limitless. Remember what Jesus said to Peter when he asked "Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?" Jesus responded "I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

    Yes revenge and wrath are justifiable in many occasions, my suggestion was that you could use a more positive way of presentation. Just a thought anyhow.

  2. #22
    Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves.
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    In the Lutheran Church's Liturgic Book (originally I am Lutheran as you) tells that after the 10 Commandment:

    "I am the Lord, your God, the fear-loving God, who punish the sins of the fathers on theirs sons, for the third and fourth generation, whos hate me; but I am merciful with them to thousand generation, whos love me and keep my Commandment."



    I have maden the German version of the 9 bidding and I got out the part of "punish the family", because this show the largest resistance and it is reassonable that why a son is punished by of own father sin. In Hungary, mainly about the politician with communist parents exists the "Fathers and Sons" question.

    Well, here is the German version I hope that someone will like it:



    Das Urgermanische Heidentum 9 Gebote

    I. Wir sind deine Götter, die Götter der deinen Ahnen!
    II. Du sollst nicht anbeten andere keine Germanische Götter!
    III. Du haltst das Sonntag oder anderes Tag für der Ruhe, ob du halst nicht das Sonntag!
    IV. Du sollst nicht morden einziges menschliche Wesen, niemals ziehe deine Waffe wegen der Zorn, wann nur anderen wollen töten dir!
    V. Du sollst nicht stehlen!
    VI. Du sollst nich lügen!
    VII. Du sollst nicht wollen zu liebeln mit anderem Mannes Frau!
    VIII. Du sollst nicht wollen zu wegnehmen anderes Haus oder anderes Eigentum!
    IX. Du sollst lieben deine Eltern, deine Familie, deiner Germanische Genosse, alle andere Menschen und die Erde was wir haben für der ganzen Menschheit gegeben!

    Ob du sollst dich nicht diese Gebote, Wir, die Götter bestrafen dich.

    Aber du sollst diese Gebote, du und deine Familie vielleicht haben langes und glückliches Leben.

    "Remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus,"or that virtue "was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice."
    /King Baldwin IV in the Kingdom of Heaven/

  3. #23
    Senior Member hodekin's Avatar
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    As a member of the Odinic Rite, this is the standard of behaviour that we as an organisation have always attempted to live by. As you will see, it is not a shallow copy of the Christian 10 Commandments.

    The 9 Noble Virtues

    The moral codes of the Odinic Rite were codified from The Hávamál and The Sigrdrífomál (poems from the Elder Edda) in the early 1970’s by two of the OR’s founding members, John Yeowell (aka Stubba) and John Gibbs-Bailey (aka Hoskuld). Since that time they have been widely adopted and although others have felt the need to change and adapt them, to us they remain as laid down by our founders.

    Courage – Truth – Honour

    Fidelity – Discipline – Hospitality

    Self-reliance – Industriousness – Perseverence



    Hodekin
    Deep in the forest, shaded by the leaves of the Greenwood Tree.

  4. #24
    Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves.
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    Thank you the posting I know it and I want not a disput that the 10 Commandament > 9 Bidding or the 9 Virtue is the better. Both of them are valuable and both of are worthy to follow.




    Nevertheless the Holy Roman Catholic Church would be never so wide-spread and so powerful on the Gods' Earth without rules, organization and dogmas.
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    "Remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus,"or that virtue "was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice."
    /King Baldwin IV in the Kingdom of Heaven/

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfaz View Post
    Nevertheless the Holy Roman Catholic Church would be never so wide-spread and so powerful on the Gods' Earth without rules, organization and dogmas.
    Hmm,

    So without their rules, organization, and dogmas it would diminish? You don't say, very interesting, very interesting indeed.

    *SpearBrave now plots to remove or attack rules, organization and dogmas*

    Sorry, I might be too busy to respond further to this thread. MUHAHAHA
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

  6. #26
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    I appreciate your enthusiasm, but:

    In addition to the Nine Noble Virtues, there is already something that is called the Nine Charges, both are mentioned in the same article of the Odinic Rite.

    1. To maintain candour and fidelity in love and devotion to the tried friend: though he strike me I will do him no scathe.

    2. Never to make wrongsome oath: for great and grim is the reward for the breaking of plighted troth.

    3. To deal not hardly with the humble and the lowly.

    4. To remember the respect that is due to great age.

    5. To suffer no evil to go unremedied and to fight against the enemies of Faith, Folk and Family: my foes I will fight in the field, nor will I stay to be burnt in my house.

    6. To succour the friendless but to put no faith in the pledged word of a stranger people.

    7. If I hear the fool’s word of a drunken man I will strive not: for many a grief and the very death groweth from out such things.

    8. To give kind heed to dead men: straw dead, sea dead or sword dead.

    9. To abide by the enactments of lawful authority and to bear with courage the decrees of the Norns.

    There doesn't need to be another nine to add to that, especially considering there's also the twenty-four 'laws' of the AG's Sittengesetz unserer Art, which you can read here.

    Since you're a native speaker of German I'm not going to translate this second link.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  7. #27
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    A germanicized version of the 10 Commandments makes somewhat sense, but would probably have a better reception among Christo-Heathen syncretists than it would presented to a Heathen target audience. The latter inherently associate it with Christianity, so it would be akin to presenting a christianized version of the 9 Noble Virtues - Christians might frown upon it as a "pagan" thing. In other words, how it is received largely depends on your target audience.

    Something else to consider is that the way heathens/pagans and Christians perceive their god/s may differ. The same can be said when it comes to sets of morals. While Christians believe in an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God and a form of universal, moral absolutism, heathens/pagans are generally less monolithic and strict. Since heathenry does not have a unified theology or a central religious authority, beliefs may differ (e.g. see here). You have those who believe in a literal existence of their gods but don't necessarily believe that they interfere in people's daily lives in the same way that the Christian God does; while others believe the gods to represent the spirit of their ancestors or manifestations of the forces of nature. The latter, for example, is how one of the high priests of the Icelandic Ásatrú Fellowship describes it:

    "From my perspective, the world is split into two in its nature, divided into constructive forces, the Æsir, and the destructive forces which we call jötnar. ... Ásatrú or heathenry is basically only to realize this dichotomy and to decide to side with the Æsir. The best way to do that, in my opinion, is to be self-consistent, live in harmony with nature, associate with it with respect and to submit to the public order. ... The gods shape the dwelling places of people, the earth and the solar system out of the material that already exists. To that extent we can look on the forces of nature as the gods themselves and to a large extent that is what people did in antiquity."

    While you will still have "old-school" practitioners who adopt a direct continuation or reconstructionist approach and model their belief system based on the pre-Christian Iron Age/Early Middle Age practices, complete with customs and rituals (blót, húsel, symbel, naming ceremonies, weddings or burials) as well as attempts to connect with their deities (e.g. through altered state of consciousness like seiðr or galdr), other heathens (particularly the neo-pagans) openly experiment with the information they have and embrace new innovations. There has also been a growing tendency towards atheism/secularism when it comes to modern day heathens, who view the deities as symbols, Jungian or racial archetypes.

    Whatever the case, heathen deities are generally not regarded as perfect, omnipotent, or omnipresent, but instead viewed as having their own strengths and weaknesses. Not all deities are regarded to be immortal, for example some heathens believe that they may one day die, as did, for instance, the god Baldr in Norse mythology. Also, unlike Christians, heathens don't necessarily regard their relationships with their gods as those of masters and servants; they are not to be necessarily faithfully obeyed in the same way that Christians obey their God. Some see them as mere examples/role models to venerate and follow for the purpose of gaining wisdom, insight or power, but they can also be negotiated, bargained or argued with. Now as far as morals go, while heathens also have a positive set of values, they generally reject the concept of sin and believe that guilt is a destructive rather than useful concept. Their ethics are based on a combination of natural law, common sense and personal responsibility (e.g. "we are our deeds", "my word is my bond"). Some Heathen communities have formalized such values into ethical codes, such as the Nine Noble Virtues, the Nine Charges or the Six-Fold Goal, which are highly regarded not only amongst themselves, but also by non-religious/secular Germanics who turn to their heritage and folklore for values. Some of the concepts expressed on your list have already been incorporated in this folk code; e.g. the virtue "Truth" implicitly includes concepts such as "Do not lie"; similarly, "Loyalty" implies one should not engage in actions such as treason or adultery; "Hospitality" ("Kinship is better than alienation") and "Perseverance" ("Ancestry is better than rootlessness"), implies honoring one's parents, extended family and kin.

    Regarding this final point, encouraging one not to tarnish the family name is commendable, however, the image of angry gods punishing current or future generations is not one that's likely to be embraced. Holding the kin of an offender liable made sense in the historical context of clans, but usually translated to the clan paying material compensation to the family of the victim, in the absence/inability of the offender. Pre-Christian Germanic law was particularly based on compensation rather than revenge. Injuries were compensated via Wergeld, according to the damage done and to the background, gender and social status of the victim. Literal kin punishment was/is actually used in totalitarian states (Sippenhaft comes to mind) or practiced as retribution between clans. Nowadays it is predominantly found in non-Germanic and non-European societies, such as North Korea, or traditional Arab society. It has no moral or legal basis in modern Germanic societies, not to mention little if any merit at all. Free spirited Germanic people tend to reject strict concepts like "orders" and "punishment" but admire concepts like "virtues", "vow" or "honor".

  8. #28
    Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves.
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    The Wrath of the Gods



    I have comen from Christian circle, before I have decided that I will be a heathen. As I know well the Christianity and I have red a lot of Germanic, Roman and Greek mythology, I have thought that it would be good syncretize the good things from the Christianity and the Heathen world.

    Well, when I have red firstly the lot of sin if the Church how destroyed the heathen temples, libraries in the late Roman Empire or the Medieval where burned men and made bloody Crusade to the Holy Land (or the Christian monopolium of the trading in the Mediterranean Sea), later how destroy the last village heathen medicine man/woman or heathen priest/priestess side by side the Pope and his court lived in Rome as an Emperor and at least how spread the Church the Anti-Semitism what have led to the Holocaust, or how attacked Bismarck's Empire through the simple priests every sunday from the pulpit, I was very angry and this have led me to the Ancient Germanic Paganism.

    The time health the wounds. Now, I can think calm about the Christianity and I have found that between the very unholy story of this religion and the base of this religion that the One God, who is Three, Father, Son, Holy Spirit and the Fourth is the Holy Mary who is whorshipped like a Goddess what is the greatest contradiction of the World that a Monotheistic religion is truly Polythestic. Furthermore the core of the Christianity that the One God whos are Three kills ownself like as own child for the Salvation of the whole World. In the last century mor than 100 million human died violent death. Where is the Salvation? The Protestant (occasionally the Catholic too) Christian every single Sunday drink a wine and eat a wafer like as Christ's blood and body, and the Church teachs that those wine and wafer really transform to the Christ's blood and body. It is a symbolistic ritual cannibalism, no more.

    After the black side of the Church, I have started to see the positive things in the Christian teaching. This religion is unsaveble, the believers are lesser and lesser, moreover under 2000 years they have collected sins to 10 million years of Hell. Furthermore, as Æternitas has mentioned the Internet can connect the whole word and this is a never thinkable stream of information. An average European can seek hundreds of morbid, illogical and bloodthirsty religion, why do he choose this?

    My aspect of view was that as a former Christian, I carry with me the positive things to the Ancient German Heathendom and I Germanize it. In the Bible were many beautiful prayer and the teaching of Christ. It would be useful to cut out the Christian and the Jewish parts, f.e. in a Christ's explanation Christ's would be and old wise Germanic man and the apprentices the people of the Germanic village.

    The Christian would say it is blasphemy and Satanism and I will burn in the Hell. The Heathen deny it, because it have Jewish and Christian source.

    I think the good knowledge is good knowledge anything is the source. The Buddhist teaching is full of good ideas. Furthermore in the Antiquity when the contemporary huge religions (Judaism, Christianism, Islam, Buddhism) evolved the religions or cults change each other wisedom and information. In that age was not these monolithic and dogmatic Churches like as nowadays.

    At least about the Wrath of the Gods. I strongly believe that if a human lives an evil, lyer, stealer, cheater, killer life, many of them slip out the jurisdiction, f.e. an evil father or a embezzler, the Gods will punish him. The Gods are mercyfull, but the Gods are fair.

    Well, I did not win the most of you approval, but I will continue my work and save the worthy part of the dying Christendom to the rising Heathendom. Sombody will be hostile, somebody will be friendly, somebody will be idignant about this Blasphemy, but anyway somebody will find it useful.

    This is a beautiful parable that the wisdom is open for anybody, but just few man can understand it and profitable from it (not necessary materialist). Christ's teachings are not universal as he wanted speak to own Jewish fellowship, but this story is acceptable to Germanization as it is universal wisdom.

    King James Bible
    Matthew 13:18–23

    18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

    19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

    20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

    21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

    22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

    23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

    "Remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus,"or that virtue "was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice."
    /King Baldwin IV in the Kingdom of Heaven/

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    You want to create a christian sect? Fine, do so, I don't care. Just don't associate it with "Germanic" or "Germanic Heathen" or anything like that, as I will consider it a serious problem.
    Lieber tot als Sklave!

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    A germanicized version of the 10 Commandments makes sense, but would probably have a better reception among Germanic Christians than it would presented to a Heathen target audience. The latter inherently associate it with Christianity, so it would be akin to presenting a christianized version of the 9 Noble Virtues - Christians might frown upon it as a "pagan" thing. In other words, how it is received largely depends on your target audience.
    I think this pretty much says it all. Wulfaz, it seems like you're trying to reinvent a religion some here take very seriously, and that is why they are taking offense. Imagine going up to a priest in a Catholic Church and telling him you've invented some new rules for Christianity. I would expect horror, amusement, annoyance... anything but you being taken seriously.

    Though Haliaeetus has insulted you, from his viewpoint, you have insulted his religion. He's right in that what you are tooling with here is something other than heathenry. There's nothing wrong with that, just don't call it heathenry.
    Most people think as they are trained to think, and most people make a majority.

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