Stauffenberg: A Noble and Hero

[Aptrgangr]

That's not the point, just your rumblings, the one who has "Heil" will find it in war as in peace.

But that exactly is the point - you said "most of his gang did everything to harm the German war effort. If you sabotage the war effort, you shouldn't wonder about the lack of Heil". Unfortunately the right-wing/national-conservatives, this gang, did way too much to support the aggressions of the Ns-gangsters. Too late they noticed they were hijacked by a monstrous regime that only claimed to serve Germany but in reality did not. And Hitler found his "Heil" in a bullet, nothing bad with that, but unfortunately way too late.

[Hauke Haien]

- not to mention it was them havings started the war.

They started a war, not the war. The failure to control the situation and emerge victorious from it, that is what can be meaningfully criticised.

I am convinced if Germany had liberated herself, we today would be better off.

How would self-liberation (= voluntary foreign domination) have improved our situation? Would we find ourselves looking forward to a bright future, similar to the one England has now?

[Aptrgangr]

They started a war, not the war.

A war, not the war? Makes no difference, war is a war.

The failure to control the situation and emerge victorious from it, that is what can be meaningfully criticised.

Apparely exactly this drives Nutzees around the wall - it was never them and always the otherside which is to be blamed for any mistake.

How would self-liberation (= voluntary foreign domination) have improved our situation? Would we find ourselves looking forward to a bright future, similar to the one England has now?

The substance of the German folk and nation would have remained intact, similar to the post-WW1 era. Taking the German people hostage until the bitter end did not only cost millions of lifes, destroy the nation butalso has destroyed any trust into any national-orientated policy for generations, and since we come a step closer to the point of no return every day passing, maybe for ever.

[Hauke Haien]

A war, not the war? Makes no difference, war is a war.

Various powers meddled on their own accord, which escalated the war. It is the inability to either prevent this or to destroy all enemy powers that constitutes the only moral failure here. There is nothing wrong with starting a victorious war.

The substance of the German folk and nation would have remained intact, similar to the post-WW1 era. Taking the German people hostage until the bitter end did not only cost millions of lifes, destroy the nation butalso has destroyed any trust into any national-orientated policy for generations, and since we come a step closer to the point of no return every day passing, maybe for ever.

The difference between Weimar and FRG is that the former was centered on self-determination through positive law, while the latter is a self-sustaining liberal democracy. It would not be legally possible to have a folkish policy even if the people wanted it, and great care is taken that they do not. This system was designed to keep us part of the American sphere of influence, much like the GDR system was designed to keep it in the Soviet sphere of influence.

Now: Do you think that the US and the SU would not have divided Europe among themselves if "Germany had liberated itself" during the war?

[Aptrgangr]

Various powers meddled on their own accord, which escalated the war. It is the inability to either prevent this or to destroy all enemy powers that constitutes the only moral failure here.

Germany did nothing to prevent this catastrophe, it fuelled it instead of considering a clear balanced and anti-imperialist policy which suits to a central European power.

There is nothing wrong with starting a victorious war.

So Stalin was right invading Finland?

The difference between Weimar and FRG is that the former was centered on self-determination through positive law, while the latter is a self-sustaining liberal democracy. It would not be legally possible to have a folkish policy even if the people wanted it, and great care is taken that they do not. This system was designed to keep us part of the American sphere of influence, much like the GDR system was designed to keep it in the Soviet sphere of influence.

That is obvious, the point is the resistance against this has failed as NS did much to alienate Germans from Germany by claiming their policy was pro-German. As soon as there is no clear distance to the past NS regime, there will be no advancement.

Now: Do you think that the US and the SU would not have divided Europe among themselves if "Germany had liberated itself" during the war?

They would have, but Germans would not loath themselves as much as they do now. It is possible to maintain a national pride, even under centuries long occupation.
- it would spared Germans cheering the "Rosinenbombers" of1948/49 which had thrown bombs on them a few years before as liberators.

[Hauke Haien]

Germany did nothing to prevent this catastrophe, it fuelled it instead of considering a clear balanced and anti-imperialist policy which suits to a central European power.

There is no advantage to such a policy. It allows other powers to grow and attack us at their own convenience, or simply dominate us like the US does with its European stooges, termed friends and allies.

So Stalin was right invading Finland?

The success of the competition is always immoral.

That is obvious, the point is the resistance against this has failed as NS did much to alienate Germans from Germany by claiming their policy was pro-German.

The West and its social model alienated Germans from Germany, much like it has alienated all other peoples within it from their roots. Slandering NS is just a way to facilitate this.

As soon as there is no clear distance to the past NS regime, there will be no advancement.

The people are mostly interested in what can work and what can benefit them, and perhaps inspires them on top of it. Anti-NS tirades certainly do not create distance, they invite comparisons and give the impression that there is in fact not enough distance.

They would have, but Germans would not loath themselves as much as they do now. It is possible to maintain a national pride, even under centuries long occupation.

They would still be forced to feel sorry for not folding sooner. The narrative can always be changed to suit the needs of the dominating power and its collaborators on our soil.

[Aptrgangr]

There is no advantage to such a policy. It allows other powers to grow and attack us at their own convenience, or simply dominate us like the US does with its European stooges, termed friends and allies.

According to you it is always the stonger that dominates - why your lament? That s what Germanics have become, that´s the natural order, no? Why bother?
Noone would have found a reason to attack a neutral Germany that cares about the own prosperity instead of expanding into their countries and spheres of interest.

The success of the competition is always immoral.

Depends on the player, there is no need to compete with unjust aggressors on who is the best in subjugating weaker ones.

The West and its social model alienated Germans from Germany, much like it has alienated all other peoples within it from their roots. Slandering NS is just a way to facilitate this.

Have you ever thought about why the "West" has such a tremendous succuess? Simply because the terms "folk and nation" are toxic and are not seen as desirable alternative as it is equalled with war, hunger, concentration camps and arbitrariness. And who is it we have we owe this?

The people are mostly interested in what can work and what can benefit them, and perhaps inspires them on top of it. Anti-NS tirades certainly do not create distance, they invite comparisons and give the impression that there is in fact not enough distance.

There is not enough distance - that´s why people shun any form of nationalism, no matter how outrageous the situation has become.

They would still be forced to feel sorry for not folding sooner. The narrative can always be changed to suit the needs of the dominating power and its collaborators on our soil.

Sure, I just said we´d been better off, I did not say it would have been perfect. The result of the moral bankruptcy of NS and collaborating nationalism is plain to see.

[Hauke Haien]

According to you it is always the stonger that dominates - why your lament? That s what Germanics have become, that´s the natural order, no? Why bother?

We can complain that gravity drags us down, and we can also try to stand up straight. That the stronger force dominates a weaker one is just a fact, it is not a moral judgment we have to follow. On the contrary, it implies that we have to become stronger and weaken our enemy in order to destroy him.

Noone would have found a reason to attack a neutral Germany that cares about the own prosperity instead of expanding into their countries and spheres of interest.

The SU fired at its own positions in order to attack Finland, the US attacked countless countries under lame pretexts.

Depends on the player, there is no need to compete with unjust aggressors on who is the best in subjugating weaker ones.

If your spirit is broken and you have accepted the death of your folk, then there is really no need for anything anymore. Until then, there is no higher authority on what is just and unjust. As a rule of thumb, aggression against us is unjust and aggression against others must be judged by how it relates to us.

Have you ever thought about why the "West" has such a tremendous succuess?

Unrestrained economic strength coupled with nuclear deterrence and the strong ability to convert followers to its perverted cause.

Simply because the terms "folk and nation" are toxic and are not seen as desirable alternative as it is equalled with war, hunger, concentration camps and arbitraryness. And who is it we have we owe this?

Reality, I assume. The folkish way is not always pleasant, but it has meaning and it has purpose. The West offers us a pointless life centered around lifeless things, with little joy and little pain, because none of it reaches the profound meaning that being part of a community and contributing to its higher purpose entails. It is in fact the experience of a common struggle as a people that energised our ancestors the most and many still miss it.

There is not enough distance - that´s why people shun any form of nationalism, no matter how outrageous the situation has become.

When you distance yourself, they will just throw the mud further in your direction. It is better to stay on message in a way that reaches people where they stand now and helps them change perspective.

Sure, I just said we´d been better off, I did not say it would have been perfect. The result of the moral bankruptcy of NS and collaborating nationalism is plain to see.

If liberal values act as a benchmark for non-liberal ideologies, then they will of course fail this test, because they do not try to conform to liberal values in the first place. In short: "Apples are bad, because they are not oranges."

[Aptrgangr]

We can complain that gravity drags us down, and we can also try to stand up straight. That the stronger force dominates a weaker one is just a fact, it is not a moral judgment we have to follow. On the contrary, it implies that we have to become stronger and weaken our enemy in order to destroy him.

There lies the problem, so far the national side completely failed in becoming stronger due to the adherence of ideologial fallacies and pipe-dreams.

The SU fired at its own positions in order to attack Finland, the US attacked countless countries under lame pretexts.

That means we may propagate the same? Nay thanks.

If your spirit is broken and you have accepted the death of your folk, then there is really no need for anything anymore. Until then, there is no higher authority on what is just and unjust. As a rule of thumb, aggression against us is unjust and aggression against others must be judged by how it relates to us.

I am all for self-defence - but propagating the same errors made during the 3rd Reich will not lead to any sort of awakening.

Unrestrained economic strength coupled with nuclear deterrence and the strong ability to convert followers to its perverted cause.

Counter-measures?

Reality, I assume. The folkish way is not always pleasant, but it has meaning and it has purpose. The West offers us a pointless life centered around lifeless things, with little joy and little pain, because none of it reaches the profound meaning that being part of a community and contributing to its higher purpose entails. It is in fact the experience of a common struggle as a people that energised our ancestors the most and many still miss it.

So you admit yourself folkish policy is just a certain minority/fringe group these days. Agreed, and it likely remains this way as the German nation as such will go down. The only interesting point is whether there will be German communities living or not.

When you distance yourself, they will just throw the mud further in your direction. It is better to stay on message in a way that reaches people where they stand now and helps them change perspective.

The message we need to attack Poland etc.pp. reaches only a fringe group.

If liberal values act as a benchmark for non-liberal ideologies, then they will of course fail this test, because they do not try to conform to liberal values in the first place. In short: "Apples are bad, because they are not oranges."

...and the result is plain to see. It is about making a change into a positive direction, something NS obviously can´t offer.

[Jäger]

... due to the adherence of ideologial fallacies ...

What are ideological fallacies?

That means we may propagate the same? Nay thanks.

No, that means both the SU and the US might have found enough reasons, contrary to your claim they wouldn't.
You do that very often, make a claim, and when a response disproves you, you talk like you wouldn't have said anything before.