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Thread: Stauffenberg: A Noble and Hero

  1. #71
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    I find the whole story of Stauffenberg's assassination plot fascinating especially in how "charmed" Hitler's life seemed to be even with a bomb at his feet.
    I look forward to seeing Hymiewood's portrayal of it, despite its no doubt usual level of anti-German content.
    As for the appraisal of Stauffenberg as a "hero" or "traitor", that's a question best left to the Germans in my opinion. I ain't no German and "don't have any dogs in that fight".
    The idea of functionaries of the present Bundes-regime in any way appropriating as a symbol a man that would likely have despised them and their degenerate socialist "democracy" is highly amusing,though.
    Last edited by KYAnglo; Friday, January 2nd, 2009 at 07:05 PM. Reason: extra goodness

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    A traitor to what? Worshipping Adolf Hitler? Hitler was going insane and pushed Germany into continuing a futile war which destroyed a big part of Germany and its people.

    "We shall not capitulate... no never. We may be destroyed, but if we are, we shall drag a world with us... a world in flames." - Adolf Hitler

    Stauffenberg cared for his people and for Germany. Hitler did not. He was a madman with too much pride.
    Thank God there are sane German people on here like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvin View Post
    Hello
    Most of the Germans today consider Stauffenberg as a true hero of the Patriotic Movement of Germans which of course has nothing to do with National Socialism. In addition, there is a growing amount of books in support of this theory due to the attempt to ensure that the Germans should fight any National Socialist movement in favour of a simple Bourgois patriotism.
    Definetely, Stauffenberg was a traitor not because he tried to assasinate Hitler, but because he tried to do that during a situation of War. Stauffenberg gains from history, not only the title of the traitor, but also the title of the first bourgois German. This type of German was the reason that Germany falled, simple because the Germans failed to defend Germany until death. It comes as no surpise that Stauffenberg-sort of personality is much adored today.
    C.v.A.
    Yeah I've noticed that from bbc news interviews with Modern Day German's and whilst killing someone you've sworn loyalty to, is not something you should really do paticularly in wartime. It certainly was neccesary to try and remove the Nazi's scourge which condemmed anyone who opposed it in the Countries it occupied in Civilian clothing to the Concentration Camps, German or anyone else.
    Last edited by Hauke Haien; Friday, January 2nd, 2009 at 09:24 PM. Reason: merged consecutive posts

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    A real hero would've sacrificed his own life in order to make sure the job was done. Does a hero just leave a bomb and sneak away to save himself?
    As I said, his plans went far beyond the assassination and he would not have been able to carry them out after a suicide attack. He only made the attempt at all because all others had already lost their opportunities to take over that part of the operation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    And what about the lesser-knowns that he killed that day? I guess in his mind they were expendable but he wasn't?
    Of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    What kind of hero is that? He was a coward.
    Stauffenberg tried to be a heroic leader, not a heroic martyr. He knew about the consequences of a failed attempt and suffered them. His plans for Germany were flawed, but he was not aware of that.

  4. #74
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    I noticed in this thread that a reoccuring motivation for deeming Von Stauffenberg a hero, at the very least because of his intentions, is the predicament Germany was in - but was the UK doing any better on the day of the assination attempt on Hitler, four years earlier, july the 20th 1940? In fact, German troops were much closer to London back then, than the allies in regards to Berlin on july the 20th '44. It would've made sense from British perspective to make peace with Germany then and there, as the German government offered favorable terms, and suggested to retreat from Norway, Danmark, the Low Countries and France. Within the British elite there were several proponents of this idea.

    Churchill however, vowed to fight to the death and to make his personal last stance in London, just as Hitler did in Berlin. What eventually happened to Germany was more likely to become of Britain in those early summer days of 1940 - so, should somebody have considered murdering Churchill?

    The ground battle for the UK would've been a fight to the death, and the so-called home guard - the elderly - would've participated in that battle too, not unlike how Germany committed its own population to the defence of the Reich. The Brits had not enough modern weaponry to equip even two divisions, defeating a full scale invasion was impossible, any resistance once the Germans gained a foothold on English soil would've proved pointless.

    This invasion of Britain seemed emminent after the fall of France. When the summer of 1940 ended, Hitler shifted his attention to Russia, and it's mainly that factor, combined with Hitler showing no desire to destruct the superpower Britain, that saved the UK from the apocalyptic fate of Germany in '45 - perhaps more so than the brave fighter pilots of the RAF, however heroic their defense of their island.

    So, Van Stauffenberg - hero, traitor, who will tell?

    Hauke Haien said it best, and I would add: If Von Stauffenberg had a more realistic view of the world he might have never detonated the bomb in the first place. It would never have resulted in Germany retreating on its borders from '37, or any other daydream one might entertain.
    “Liberalism is the exoteric religion of the financial oligarchs, the high priests of Mammon who rule the West. Appealing to the vanity and self-regard of the profane, they manufacture consent by way of elections, propaganda and all manner of distractive spectacle. Manipulation of the popular consciousness, a black art honed to new levels of refinement over the last century, is now accomplished through electronic memes and quite literal programming in television, music and film. An inverted hierarchy will promote inverted values. Who among us today honors saints and warriors past as heroes worthy of our emulation? Under the usury bankster regime, we instead offer adoration to the savage and the harlot.” — Mark Hackard, from ‘Counterfeit Paradise'

  5. #75
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    Seems goofy. Communism's goal was to take over the world and Germany wasthe U.S.S.R.'s next target. Yeah in hindsight if Hitler had known that the Soviets were as strong as they were he wouldn't have attacked. But the only way Germany would be safe in the long run was to take out the Soviet Union. If it wasn't for the Nazis the west would have lost the cold war.

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    In Germanic terms, a leader without Heil is not a leader and the conspirators were right to challenge Hitler when the ability to win battles was no longer felt. Only when he defeated the conspiracy did he prove his right to leadership anew and also passed judgment on the validity of the attempt.

  7. #77
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    I will start off by admitting that I have not read any biographies on Stauffenberg, but I have read a few, lenthy articles.

    If his beliefs were correct, that by killing Hitler and following up on his plans, he could secure peace with either the West or the Soviets, or both, than I think he had a good enough reason to act.

    However, I would have thought it would have been rather obvious that neither accepted peace deals when they were losing and they wouldn't when they were winning.

    For me, the fact that Hitler did not die - as in the numerous other assassination attempts - is testimate that he was meant to rule until his death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    I noticed in this thread that a reoccuring motivation for deeming Von Stauffenberg a hero, at the very least because of his intentions, is the predicament Germany was in - but was the UK doing any better on the day of the assination attempt on Hitler, four years earlier, july the 20th 1940? In fact, German troops were much closer to London back then, than the allies in regards to Berlin on july the 20th '44. It would've made sense from British perspective to make peace with Germany then and there, as the German government offered favorable terms, and suggested to retreat from Norway, Danmark, the Low Countries and France. Within the British elite there were several proponents of this idea.

    Churchill however, vowed to fight to the death and to make his personal last stance in London, just as Hitler did in Berlin. What eventually happened to Germany was more likely to become of Britain in those early summer days of 1940 - so, should somebody have considered murdering Churchill?

    The ground battle for the UK would've been a fight to the death, and the so-called home guard - the elderly - would've participated in that battle too, not unlike how Germany committed its own population to the defence of the Reich. The Brits had not enough modern weaponry to equip even two divisions, defeating a full scale invasion was impossible, any resistance once the Germans gained a foothold on English soil would've proved pointless.

    This invasion of Britain seemed emminent after the fall of France. When the summer of 1940 ended, Hitler shifted his attention to Russia, and it's mainly that factor, combined with Hitler showing no desire to destruct the superpower Britain, that saved the UK from the apocalyptic fate of Germany in '45 - perhaps more so than the brave fighter pilots of the RAF, however heroic their defense of their island.

    So, Van Stauffenberg - hero, traitor, who will tell?

    Hauke Haien said it best, and I would add: If Von Stauffenberg had a more realistic view of the world he might have never detonated the bomb in the first place. It would never have resulted in Germany retreating on its borders from '37, or any other daydream one might entertain.
    Judging by the actions of the Allies, particularly Britain, if they did take the return to 1939 or even 1937 borders, they would have used this to rearm and invade Germany.

    One can make scenarios up as much as one would like as to whether this or that would have happened if Hitler did not invade this or that country. In the end, every country he invaded, he invaded for a good reason; and yes, even Denmark and Norway.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Wolf View Post
    Thank God there are sane German people on here like you.
    She is not German.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke Haien View Post
    In Germanic terms, a leader without Heil is not a leader and the conspirators were right to challenge Hitler when the ability to win battles was no longer felt.
    Staufenberg chose the wrong allies, most of his gang did everything to harm the German war effort. If you sabotage the war effort, you shouldn't wonder about the lack of Heil.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Staufenberg chose the wrong allies, most of his gang did everything to harm the German war effort. If you sabotage the war effort, you shouldn't wonder about the lack of Heil.
    The corrupt NS-regime was the one who has spoilt the war effords and sabotaged peace effords - not to mention it was them havings started the war. I am convinced if Germany had liberated herself, we today would be better off.
    When men cease to fight — they cease to be — Men.
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  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aptrgangr View Post
    The corrupt NS-regime was the one who has spoilt the war effords and sabotaged peace effords - not to mention it was them havings started the war.
    That's not the point, just your rumblings, the one who has "Heil" will find it in war as in peace.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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