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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Sprite View Post
    Because the CIA through Wikileaks tells us it's easy to hack...

    That's an interesting video. It seems the CIA at least has the capacity to hack phones and todays cars, though in the case of cars the don't necessarily have the ability to do so necessarily wirelessly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Sprite View Post
    MH17 -> Ukraine & Malaysia


    MUH Russians, MUH Russians Boogyman.
    Ukrainian rebels using Russian made weapons brought down MH17. So said an international team of investigators.

    A Dutch-led team of international investigators has released its findings on the MH17 crash, concluding the plane was shot down by rebels in eastern Ukraine, using a Buk missile system “brought from Russia.”

    https://www.rt.com/news/360925-mh17-crash-jit-report/
    If that's good enough for "Russia Today" I would have though it would be good enough for you, no?
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

  2. #12
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    I think you are forgetting something.
    Ukraine, Jet crash, (Antagonizing Russia in the 'media)
    Ukraine, Military coup, suspect Israel and CIA setup. (Average everyday coup)
    IMF leap in to offer debt based fake money loans of billions.
    --- Now where have I seen that last point before ---
    Now the US media are still trying to antagonize and demonize Russia, Crimea and 'Hacking MUH elections'.

    The media and their false-currency-pushers want war. They haven't had a good one for a looooong time.

    Jet planes and civilians are totaled for 'attention'. Whether someone important was onboard doesn't matter.

    Wirelessly means nothing for hackers. So long as the system has been compromised somewhere along the line, you can use sub audible sounds to pulse speakers, and speakers can act as transceivers (but who really needs that level). If the pilot had a phone, or someone on board, you can communicate with anything inside the jet that picks up a signal. All smart cars and jets have GPS communication ability and that is 'wireless'.

    So for you to say they don't necessarily have the ability to hack 'wireless' vehicles, what are you smoking or drinking?

    No one cares anyway, Wikileaks and the CIA people feeding them are doing a stellar job of making Earth great again. So I'm looking forward to all of them cleaning up the debt-pusher war lords and actually 'helping' instead screwing everything up, murders, jet crashes, car crashes and coups.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Sprite View Post
    I think you are forgetting something.
    Ukraine, Jet crash, (Antagonizing Russia in the 'media)
    Ukraine, Military coup, suspect Israel and CIA setup. (Average everyday coup)
    IMF leap in to offer debt based fake money loans of billions.
    --- Now where have I seen that last point before ---
    Now the US media are still trying to antagonize and demonize Russia, Crimea and 'Hacking MUH elections'.

    The media and their false-currency-pushers want war. They haven't had a good one for a looooong time.

    Jet planes and civilians are totaled for 'attention'. Whether someone important was onboard doesn't matter.
    I'm sorry, but nothing in that convoluted set of claims alters the fact that Ukrainian rebels shot down MH17. No one with any credibility at all, even Russian Today, questions that fact any longer.

    Wirelessly means nothing for hackers. So long as the system has been compromised somewhere along the line, you can use sub audible sounds to pulse speakers, and speakers can act as transceivers (but who really needs that level). If the pilot had a phone, or someone on board, you can communicate with anything inside the jet that picks up a signal. All smart cars and jets have GPS communication ability and that is 'wireless'.

    So for you to say they don't necessarily have the ability to hack 'wireless' vehicles, what are you smoking or drinking?
    I'm just pointing out that so far there is no evidence that a car has been hacked without the need for someone to tamper with it physically. Therefor driver-less cars should be safer and more resistant to terrorism than conventional cars.

    As for your car being hacked by the CIA well if the U.S government wants you dead you are screwed. That has always been the case. No technology will ever alter that fact, not driver-less cars nor anything else.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

  4. #14
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    I'm sorry, but nothing in that convoluted set of claims alters the fact that Ukrainian rebels shot down MH17. No one with any credibility at all, even Russian Today, questions that fact any longer.
    They dont have any more information than anyone else, and even the end-report is full of 'conclusions' drawn from facts given, it nowhere answers the question who actually fired the shot. It's guess work. There are rebels in that area, from somewhere there the shot must have come, so we "conclude" it must have been those pro Russian rebels.

    The question still remains why pro-Russian rebels would shoot down a civil airplane, with the exact foreseeable reaction of the west that it created, mainly for Russia with sanctions and badly conceiled threats of war. This would be outright stupid. Also, the rebels deny that they did this. If they'd thought they'd gain anything from doing this, there'd be not much of a reason to not claim it for them.

    Ignored in that report (like anywhere else) is the fact that all military in the former eastern bloc owns more or less large amounts of BUGs, it's been the standard thing to have even way after the Soviet Union fell apart. So for anyone willing to make the most of the "Ukrainian crisis" in terms of generating a climate of war heating up between West and East it would have been easy to get access to one (mind you that most of the former eastern bloc is now EU member and many also NATO members), bring it into socalled "rebel area" and shoot down a random plane. Considering that the entire Ukraine thing is a plot, I'd place my bets on that rather than "rebels" harming that country which they're allegedly loyal to.

    And: why didnt they use it to shoot down the Ukrainian war planes bombing them, rather than a civil plane? It really doesnt make any sense to place it with the rebels. It makes a lot of sense, however, when taking the common war games of NATO/West into account, how they usually create the pre-texts for "intervention".

    Surely a better option than getting themselves killed while crashing a plane manually. Yet so far as we know, the hacking of an airplanes autopilot has never even been attempted by terrorists, much less achieved.
    Well, the point for the terrorist is to actually die for Allah. That's part of the game. Hacking a plane would not produce the 72 virgins, y'know.

    But hacking a plane is possible, granted by guys who do hacking for a living, but obviously, it's not even that difficult. Terrorists still wouldnt do it, it's not enough to hack the autopilot, you also need to get rid of the actual pilots, otherwise they'd only take back manual control and the game ends. Autopilots are designed so that manual take-over is always possible, with mechanical (not software stuff) things, so hacking a plane would be quite pointless anyway.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    They dont have any more information than anyone else, and even the end-report is full of 'conclusions' drawn from facts given, it nowhere answers the question who actually fired the shot. It's guess work. There are rebels in that area, from somewhere there the shot must have come, so we "conclude" it must have been those pro Russian rebels.
    It is impossible to conduct a police investigation in Eastern Ukraine, or in any warzone. So it is not reasonable to expect that the actual perpetrators would ever be found. If Russia today had any information that contradicted the reports findings they would have published it. To claim that someone other than the Rebels shot down the plane is nothing more than a conspiracy theory at this point.

    The question still remains why pro-Russian rebels would shoot down a civil airplane, with the exact foreseeable reaction of the west that it created, mainly for Russia with sanctions and badly conceiled threats of war. This would be outright stupid. Also, the rebels deny that they did this. If they'd thought they'd gain anything from doing this, there'd be not much of a reason to not claim it for them.
    Maybe the guys that shot down the plane were stupid, did you ever think of that? Maybe they shot down the plane thinking it was a bomber and then when they realised what they had done they tried to cover it up. Believe it or not the CIA does not have the worldwide monopoly on cover ups.

    Ignored in that report (like anywhere else) is the fact that all military in the former eastern bloc owns more or less large amounts of BUGs, it's been the standard thing to have even way after the Soviet Union fell apart. So for anyone willing to make the most of the "Ukrainian crisis" in terms of generating a climate of war heating up between West and East it would have been easy to get access to one (mind you that most of the former eastern bloc is now EU member and many also NATO members), bring it into socalled "rebel area" and shoot down a random plane. Considering that the entire Ukraine thing is a plot, I'd place my bets on that rather than "rebels" harming that country which they're allegedly loyal to.
    That is a possibility sure. There are all sorts of possibilities but without evidence it's all just conjecture. A group of Ukrainian state special forces could have gone behind enemy lines into the heart of rebel held territory and shot down a civilian plane, thus committing a war crime in order to make the Rebels look bad perhaps, but to no actual effect. It is possible but my question to you is, where is the evidence for that? It doesn't exist. So if no evidence exists to support a theory it is nothing more than an unfounded allegation.

    And: why didnt they use it to shoot down the Ukrainian war planes bombing them, rather than a civil plane? It really doesnt make any sense to place it with the rebels. It makes a lot of sense, however, when taking the common war games of NATO/West into account, how they usually create the pre-texts for "intervention".
    Show me a scrap of evidence that NATO did it and then we'll talk.


    But hacking a plane is possible, granted by guys who do hacking for a living, but obviously, it's not even that difficult. Terrorists still wouldnt do it, it's not enough to hack the autopilot, you also need to get rid of the actual pilots, otherwise they'd only take back manual control and the game ends. Autopilots are designed so that manual take-over is always possible, with mechanical (not software stuff) things, so hacking a plane would be quite pointless anyway.
    I must say I don't really buy the idea that terrorists could crash airliners remotely if they wanted to but choose no to because that would be too easy!

    If the autopilot on an airliner could be hacked so that it switched on just as the plane was about to land or take off and cut the power to the engines, or bank to one side, then I think there is a very good chance that the plane would crash. Pilots need a certain amount of time to figure out what was happening and react. If terrorists could hack the autopilot of airliners they would cripple the entire western world. The fact that they haven't done it yet suggests to me that so far it is beyond their capability.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    You are forgetting the most important thing of a crime investigation. Motive. You seem to dismiss that and expect everyone to hand you every bit of evidence on a platter. *shrugs shoulders* WUT?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Sprite View Post
    You are forgetting the most important thing of a crime investigation. Motive. You seem to dismiss that and expect everyone to hand you every bit of evidence on a platter. *shrugs shoulders* WUT?
    Motive is important, sure. But it's not the only important thing that needs to be considered. Equally important are MEANS and OPPORTUNITY.

    The rebels may not have had much of a motive but they certainly had plenty of means and ample opportunity. The same cannot be said to the same extent for any other group.

    Sneaking into the heart rebel held territory with an anti-aircraft rocket and shooting down a plane is by no means an easy thing to do. And escaping after firing the weapon would be even harder. And if you are caught in the act or immediately afterwards the entire operation is a huge public relations disaster.

    All of that adds to the notion that anyone but the Rebels shooting down that plane is rather unlikely.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Are you saying Mossad and the CIA couldn't pull it off? Get real. Ex CIA admins love to get on the TV and whine about how they caused 'such and such a coup'. It's standard fare for them. It's their JOB.
    Rebels smebbles, someone yell, wait for it, *breathes in* SCAPEGOAT!.
    Oh thank you.
    Some imaginary, motiveless, media-poster-group, vs IMF, CIA style coup and burn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Sprite View Post
    Are you saying Mossad and the CIA couldn't pull it off? Get real. Ex CIA admins love to get on the TV and whine about how they caused 'such and such a coup'. It's standard fare for them. It's their JOB.
    I'm not claiming the CIA couldn't possibility do it, I'm merely claiming that there is no evidence, no evidence at all, that they did do it.


    Rebels smebbles, someone yell, wait for it, *breathes in* SCAPEGOAT!.
    Oh thank you.
    Some imaginary, motiveless, media-poster-group, vs IMF, CIA style coup and burn.
    Scapegoats? Lol! A bunch of half-trained rebels given anti-aircraft rockets don't need much of a motive to bring down a passenger plane, That is just the kind of thing they are liable to end up doing occasionally. If you can't see that then I wonder what you are smoking.


    In any case, an international team of investigators including some Russian experts and the entire mainstream press including the Russian press, I might add, disagrees with you. So until you come up with some actual evidence of CIA involvement in an international mass-murder plot to discredit the Ukrainian rebels I will continue to take the view of the international community over yours, i.e that the Rebels discredited themselves, all by themselves. Sorry.

    You see, not everything that people do, is done for a rational reason. That is never more true than in war. I will go further and say that the tendency that many on this forum have to rush to apply clearly defined motives to shadowy forces, and to do so without evidence, is a mental glitch they would be well rid of.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

  10. #20
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    It is impossible to conduct a police investigation in Eastern Ukraine, or in any warzone. So it is not reasonable to expect that the actual perpetrators would ever be found. If Russia today had any information that contradicted the reports findings they would have published it. To claim that someone other than the Rebels shot down the plane is nothing more than a conspiracy theory at this point
    .

    A lot of high-quality fotos are flying around for a place that allegedly cant be investigated

    Also Russia has been excluded from the investigation, while Ukraine was not.
    Western satelite imagery and data stems from July 20, which is 3 days after the crash, while the Joint Investigation Team refused to even look at satelite data from Russian air controls from the actual day of the crash.

    The report is quite blown up with "information", but all relevant points and all those fine animations that are presented are all not actual data but "computer visualisations", visualising the guess work and the narrative of the west.


    Maybe the guys that shot down the plane were stupid, did you ever think of that? Maybe they shot down the plane thinking it was a bomber and then when they realised what they had done they tried to cover it up. Believe it or not the CIA does not have the worldwide monopoly on cover ups.
    Well, okay, they're that stupid that they confuse a 4 times larger, 2 times higher flying civil airplane with a smaller, lower flying bomber. These same stupid people are holding territory against Ukrainian/western forces for several years now. Okay.

    Btw, these same stupid ppl ensured that the Dutch and the Joint Investigation Team could investigate the crash site in the first place.


    That is a possibility sure. There are all sorts of possibilities but without evidence it's all just conjecture. A group of Ukrainian state special forces could have gone behind enemy lines into the heart of rebel held territory and shot down a civilian plane, thus committing a war crime in order to make the Rebels look bad perhaps, but to no actual effect. It is possible but my question to you is, where is the evidence for that? It doesn't exist. So if no evidence exists to support a theory it is nothing more than an unfounded allegation.
    The point is that the given evidence doesnt pin down the act to rebels either, and since a lot of data has been rejected by the Joint Investigation Team, the report is nothing but a theory, too.
    One entirely wrapped by the west, one that fits the western narrative of "evil, Ukraine-annexing Russia that threatens the west" and all that other bullshit. No one ever talked to the rebels, even though they made sure that the team can move about the place freely, no one looked at the actual satelite data from Russia.

    In a criminal investigation you at least talk to the suspects. Not in this case.


    Show me a scrap of evidence that NATO did it and then we'll talk.
    Ah, wish I could, but what I can is to shred doubt upon the western tale, which is quite like a Swiss cheese, where actual data should be are only holes^^


    I must say I don't really buy the idea that terrorists could crash airliners remotely if they wanted to but choose no to because that would be too easy!

    If the autopilot on an airliner could be hacked so that it switched on just as the plane was about to land or take off and cut the power to the engines, or bank to one side, then I think there is a very good chance that the plane would crash. Pilots need a certain amount of time to figure out what was happening and react. If terrorists could hack the autopilot of airliners they would cripple the entire western world. The fact that they haven't done it yet suggests to me that so far it is beyond their capability.
    As said, it's a question that doesnt even come to their minds. Most likely they were not capable of doing it, in that you're right, but it's not their style anyway. It's quite a moot point to ponder.
    Terrorists need the shock element, they will always prefer the suicide bomber over any kind of sophisticated technology.

    And in turn, all sophisticated technology is not capable of stopping a suicide bomber, someone driving a truck into crowds, a handful people running with machine guns through Paris or stop freaks from hacking random people to pieces in trains.

    How about the terrorist throws out the robot-pilot from the bus and takes over? How sophisticated needs a terrorists to be to do it? How is the robot-pilot capable to stop the terrorist from doing so?

    You cant go with "western" logic about that topic. Then you'll always fall short of reality, the motives, what drives them etc.
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