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Thread: 'Enigma Man' May Be New Human Species That Lived Until 11,000 Years Ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    Didn't a neanderthal femur from Tabun have similarities to the hobbits and Homo habilis? How do you explain this? Skeletons are plastic through bone remodelling under stress. The femur is used in locomotion. Anthropoids are plastic in their locomotion adaptations. I'm not convinced by this - but I don't rule it out.
    We are talking the neck of the femur in the case of the Red Deer guys. I don't recall any Neanderthals with odd femurs other than being very, very thick and being bowed. Some UP femurs are bowed and it is thought squatting by a fire may cause this over time. Neanderthal bowing is really quite extreme and probably serves to transmit more stress. The angle of the neck of the femur, in other words, the way it hangs off the pelvis, may have been slightly different because Neanderthals had a wide pelvis but there are probably many sapiens with a proportionally wide pelvis.

    If you have something on the Tabun femur I would be very interested to hear it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    If you have something on the Tabun femur I would be very interested to hear it.
    I think it was the paper about the Flores hobbits having a femur like Homo habilis not Homo erectus. As you know in anthropoids adaptation to locomotion is plastic and I assume rapid shifts including reversals happen easily in Homo species as well. Not to mention the effects of lifestyle on the growing skeleton. If the skeletons of Japanese macaques and pathological goats become quite human-like when they are forced to become bipedal how much of our uniqueness is genetic even?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    I think it was the paper about the Flores hobbits having a femur like Homo habilis not Homo erectus. As you know in anthropoids adaptation to locomotion is plastic and I assume rapid shifts including reversals happen easily in Homo species as well. Not to mention the effects of lifestyle on the growing skeleton. If the skeletons of Japanese macaques and pathological goats become quite human-like when they are forced to become bipedal how much of our uniqueness is genetic even?
    Bipedalism is not just one bone. It is the spine, pelvis, legs, knees, and feet. These all have to be derived from and ancestor who either swung underneath branches or scampered over them like a monkey. This is a big shift. Apes can be taught to walk for awhile but then break down as did the chimp Oliver. These changes are genetic. True, humans are plastic but only within limits as are all other creatures.

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    The ancestry of the Red Deer Cave people of is no enigma -- they are partially Neanderthal. They have several diagnostic traits of Neanderthals which should come as no surprise given the much older Neanderthal presence in Southeast China -- as represented by the +100,000 year old Maba 1 cranium, which has recently been rebranded as a Neanderthal.

    This exellent paper describes the features of these ~11,000 year old hominids in great detail.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0031918

    Both Maludong mandibles show asymmetry of the mandibular notch. However, the coronoid process of MLDG 1679 is disproportionately large, a feature common among NEAND, while in MLDG 1706 it is greatly reduced, the H. sapiens condition. In LL 1, the coronoid process is large, but its proportions cannot be assessed owing to an absence of the notch and condylar process. Specimens LL 1 and MLDG 1679 possess a retromolar space (M3 is uncovered [21]), a common characteristic of NEAND (presence: 75%, versus 32.9–40% in early H. sapiens). In MLDG 1706, the M3 is partially covered; scored here as absence of a retromolar space. While the medial pterygoid attachment area is strongly scarred in both Maludong mandibles, they lack a prominent superior pterygoid tubercle (present: NEAND 81.2%, Eurasian early H. sapiens 10–76.7%). Finally, the crest of the mandibular notch meets the condyle laterally in MLDG 1679, but it is more medially located in MLDG 1706. Medial placement of the crest is found frequently in NEAND (63% presence, versus 100% absence in Western and European H. sapiens) and characterises the Dar-es-Soltane 5 mandible with its apparent archaic affinities [1], [32].
    Interernally, the alveolar plane of LL 1 and MLDG 1706 is posteriorly inclined and the transverse tori are thickened. This is a common feature among archaic later Pleistocene hominins such as Témara 1 (North Africa), but is largely absent from early H. sapiens [32]. Externally, the symphysis is somewhat undercut in lateral aspect, and its anterior symphyseal angle is low (77°), a value closest to NEAND (80.8±7.3°; z-0.51) and the Témara 1 mandible (80°). In contrast, Pleistocene H. sapiens angles are more acute (means 86.6–96.5°; z-1.34 to -3.02), as seen also in the East Asian mandibles Tianyuan 1 (~96°) and Zhirendong 3 (91°). Body height (26.9 mm) and thickness (13.3 mm) at the level of the mental foramen in MLDG 1706 are comparatively low, showing the specimen to be similar to modern humans in its size. Its body height sits just outside of the range of Pleistocene East Asian H. sapiens mandibles (range 27.4–33.7 mm), but body thickness is comfortably within their range (11.3–14.4 mm). Body height (28 mm) and thickness (14 mm) measured slightly posterior to the mental foramen in LL 1 is similar to the Maludong specimen (Table 16).

    The facial skeleton of LL 1 is broad. Bizygomatic breadth is estimated to be wide (c144 mm), strongly distinguishing it from EAEHS, the value for LL 1 being outside of (slightly above) its range. Its bizygomatic most closely resembles NEAND (145±8 mm; z-0.12), and is similar also to AFEHS (142 mm). A second index of postorbital constriction is the ratio minimum frontal breadth/bizygomatic breadth, providing a more direct measure of the relative size of the temporal fossa. The value for LL 1 is large (66%) by later hominin standards. While it is equal to the minimum value for EUEHS and WAEHS, its value is distant from their means (EUEHS (73±4%; z-1.67, p0.06; WAEHS 70%). It also contrasts strongly with EAEHS (73±3%; z-2.16, p0.04) and NEAND (74±2%; z-3.70, p0.006). In contrast, bimaxillary breadth in LL 1 (108 mm) is most similar to EAEHS (105±6 mm; z0.47). While the index of upper/mid-facial (bimaxillary) breadth is high for LL 1 (98%), it is similar to EAESH (93±5%; z0.65) and NEAND (95±5%; z0.57)
    The measurable maxillary crowns of LL 1 are comparatively broad. Its P4 BL (11.0 mm) is most like ERECT (11.5±1.0 mm; z-0.49, p0.31) and is distinct from H. sapiens (Qafzeh-Skhul 10.2±0.8 mm; z0.95; Upper Palaeolithic H. sapiens 9.9±0.6 mm; z1.80, p0.04) and NEAND (10.0±0.7 mm; z1.40). In contrast, its M1 crown is narrow (11.7 mm), and while its value is well within the range of all comparative samples, it is closest to the NEAND mean (12.0±0.8; z-037). The BL diameter of an isolated M3 MLDG 1747 (12.5 mm) is comparatively large, but sits within the range of all samples listed in Table 19, being equally close to the Qafzeh-Skhul (11.7±0.6; z0.42) and NEAND (11.9±1.4; z0.42) means.

    Measurements made on CT-scans of the in situ M3 of MLDG 1679 (not given) indicate that this tooth is taurodont (Taurodontism index [33] 26.1%, or hypotaurodont). Additionally, MLDG 1747 is also taurodont (Figure 12), its three roots being fused for most of their course. Taurodontism is rare among recent and EUEHS humans [34]–[35], but is commonly considered a distinguishing feature of NEAND [35]–[36].

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    I think the Flores "hobbits" awakened people to the possibility of other human species surviving late elsewhere. Really Red Deer Cave people seem to be less unusual than the media says. Oddly Iwo Eluru (Nigeria) goes unmentioned maybe because they don't want racism accusations.

    Flores is isolated from Asia by the sea. The Central African tropical forests are a region distinct from the rest of Africa. The Red Deer Caves were not isolated from the evolutionary mainline. How would Middle Pleistocene or earlier people survive competition with modern hunter gatherers? Neanderthals and Denisovans "disappeared" via reticulation faced with the competition. And dates for early AMH in Asia are being pushed back.
    Neanderthals and Denisovans didn't disappear because they couldn't survive competition. All of the evidence demonstrates that they were superior competitors -- including genetic evidence in the form of male-mediated DNA admixture in homo sapiens -- the opposite of which has not been found in any Neanderthal. So the Neanderthals and Denisovans disappeared by destroying the modern humans -- a process that apparently took at least 40,000 years.

    The reason archaic forms persist longer in Asia is because Asia had more archaic humans to begin with and was located a greater distance from Africa over much more treacherous terrain and climate, leading to more bottlenecking of human migration and acting like a time delay on the spread of modern morphology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pool Closer View Post
    The ancestry of the Red Deer Cave people of is no enigma -- they are partially Neanderthal. They have several diagnostic traits of Neanderthals which should come as no surprise given the much older Neanderthal presence in Southeast China -- as represented by the +100,000 year old Maba 1 cranium.

    This exellent paper describes the features of these ~11,000 year old hominids in great detail.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0031918
    But how does this explain their Mongoloid-like features? The UP Siberians had a Mongoloid-type nasal root but it is not truly a Mongoloid feature: Uralics also have it and more pronounced. It is worth noting though that neanderthaloid dental traits pefsisted in the Barabs forest steppe until at leazt the Neolithicum.

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    The Red Deer people are strange and that is about the only thing for certain about them. On one hand they do look a bit archaic. On the other hand they have features which could be called super-East Asian.

    The further east, away from new migrations out of Africa, the stranger the people seem (as Pool Closer said). There now appears to be another archaic survival in the islands off India, so with the Neanderthals, the Denisovans, and the H. erectus in the Denisovans, that makes four archaic groups.

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