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Thread: Norwegian Physical Anthropology and the Idea of a Nordic Master Race

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Víđálfr View Post
    You have Norwegian and Swedish DNA according to the results you posted, so it would be interesting to see what links they find from your DNA to different ancient peoples.
    As it would be interesting to see yours since you say you have Dacian DNA and claim that Dacians are a Germanic people. If they are as Germanic as you say, there would be DNA evidence of this. Don't you think?

    Otherwise, it's all fairy tales. If the average Norwegian or Swedish person takes a DNA test, they clearly get a Germanic result. The same can't be said for the average Romanian - who is the average modern descendent of Dacians, right? So if Dacians were such a Germanic people, how do you explain the fact that Romanians don't cluster with other Germanic tribes?

    Honestly, I don't think you should be mislead by appearance. Maybe some Romanians look Nordic, but that doesn't make them Germanic. There are Nordic looking people in many non-Germanic populations, even amongst non-Europeans (Kabyle Berbers).

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  3. #12
    Mein Glaube ist die Liebe zu meinem Volk. Juthunge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Not to spoil your enthusiasm, but "east" in this context means the (now) Russian steppes, Siberia and the Tundra regions straight through to nowadays Mongolia/Chinese border.
    For the time frame Víđálfr posits, right after the Ice Age, this makes no more sense than her theory, though.
    After the last glacial maximum, northern Europe (using the term in the broadest possible definition here) was repopulated from refugias in Iberia and southeastern Europe.

    And, yes the territory of what is now Romania was part of that refugia but obviously has zero to do with Dacians. That would be entirely anachronistic because Dacians, as a separate group, date to the first millenia BC whereas this repopulation happened ten thousands of years earlier. Neither the Dacians, nor more recent populations are related much genetically to this early repopulation anyway.
    At most modern populations living in Scandinavia, or Romania, for that matter, bear minimal traces of these early populations (we're talking about under 1% here).
    Obviously, there is no relation between Dacians and Germanics/Scandinavians and to use a Mesolithic repopulation of northern Europe or a 17th century scholar arguing from linguistics, as evidence, is just farcical.

    In fact, the genetic migration routes all start in the Kurgan valley and spread - seperately! - into the east (India), the south (now Iran/Persia/Mesopotamia), and into the north/Europe through Siberia into Europe.
    Through Siberia? Where is this "Kurgan valley" supposed to be, Mongolia? Apart from the fact that Kurgan is simply a(n originally Turkic) term for a grave mound/tumulus and that's why it's called the Kurgan hypothesis.

    Based on genetics, and archaeology even before, the Indo-European Urheimat was somewhere in the southwest of modern Russia. From there it spread west into Europe, east into Siberia and some reflux only later spread from the western descendant cultures south(-east) into the Middle East and India. We know the latter because later source populations for the migration into the Middle East and India (Sintashta culture) had acquired early Farmer ancestry and they can only have acquired that in the west. Again, this agrees with archaeology.

    Where in turn what is now dubbed Doggerland (now sunk on the ground of the North Sea/Baltic Sea) became the Urheimat of distinctly Germanic populations.
    What is the evidence for that? Doggerland sank in the late Mesolithic no later than 6000 BC and was still populated by local Western Hunter Gatherers, whereas the genetic basis of Germanic peoples essentially dates back to the late Neolithic around 2500 BC.
    And the day they sold us out, Our hearts grew cold
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  5. #13
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    For the time frame Víđálfr posits, right after the Ice Age, this makes no more sense than her theory, though.
    After the last glacial maximum, northern Europe (using the term in the broadest possible definition here) was repopulated from refugias in Iberia and southeastern Europe.
    And then they've been replaced, again, ~5000 years ago by other people (us). This older population didnt leave much genetic traces, as you say yourself.

    And, yes the territory of what is now Romania was part of that refugia but obviously has zero to do with Dacians. That would be entirely anachronistic because Dacians, as a separate group, date to the first millenia BC whereas this repopulation happened ten thousands of years earlier. Neither the Dacians, nor more recent populations are related much genetically to this early repopulation anyway.
    Indeed.

    At most modern populations living in Scandinavia, or Romania, for that matter, bear minimal traces of these early populations (we're talking about under 1% here).
    Obviously, there is no relation between Dacians and Germanics/Scandinavians and to use a Mesolithic repopulation of northern Europe or a 17th century scholar arguing from linguistics, as evidence, is just farcical.
    Didnt say anything else, because the pre-Neolithic revolution peoples have been replaced.

    Through Siberia? Where is this "Kurgan valley" supposed to be, Mongolia? Apart from the fact that Kurgan is simply a(n originally Turkic) term for a grave mound/tumulus and that's why it's called the Kurgan hypothesis.
    It's dubbed Kurgan valley because it's covered with old burial mounds, but yes, it's probably the entire plain region of what is now Mongolia and more western, along the Tundra/permafrost regions. Where also horses originate.

    But it's maybe not one wave only, but several, as shown here



    Based on genetics, and archaeology even before, the Indo-European Urheimat was somewhere in the southwest of modern Russia. From there it spread west into Europe, east into Siberia and some reflux only later spread from the western descendant cultures south(-east) into the Middle East and India. We know the latter because later source populations for the migration into the Middle East and India (Sintashta culture) had acquired early Farmer ancestry and they can only have acquired that in the west. Again, this agrees with archaeology.
    But farming was invented in the "fertile belt" (middle east), along with dairy farming, not in the (north-)west.
    Isnt this rather a "cultural export" than one that depends on populations to bring it with them?

    And it wasnt an all-positive invention, early settlements (Kybicly Tepe (sp?)/Anatolia) show devastating effects on health conditions of the early "only settlers", physically weak, malnutritioned, bad teeth, caries and plagues. And the origin of the idea that "god" punished humans. This twisted view however is a recent import to Europe, before that we revered mother nature, also still with the careful and slow adoption of farming and animals from there.

    What is the evidence for that? Doggerland sank in the late Mesolithic no later than 6000 BC and was still populated by local Western Hunter Gatherers, whereas the genetic basis of Germanic peoples essentially dates back to the late Neolithic around 2500 BC.
    A while ago I saw or read somewhere that Doggerland was probably longer settled than previously thought.
    Also consider that the modern coast line is very recent (*sing* Heut bin ich über Runghold gefahren, die Stadt ging unter vor sechshundert Jahren...). Runghold is now sunk in the Wattenmeer, 800 years ago the coast line was much farther out in what is now the North Sea, many kilometers farther out. This is not an ancient event, but very recently rather.
    Helgoland, which is now a high-sea island far away from any mainland, used to be one of our ancient Germanic holy places, maybe dating back to times where high-sea sea faring was not yet possible. Makes no sense, but it does when you consider the sea level to be much lower. There were probably times when you could see Helgoland from the mainland settlements and just had to "paddle" a bit to get there. The sea level didnt rise from superlow during the Ice Age to the now status in one single, sudden event, it's an ongoing development that ate away from Doggerland in several waves, some of them occuring when we've been already here and even one in recorded history.

    However, just some thoughts.
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    Mein Glaube ist die Liebe zu meinem Volk. Juthunge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    It's dubbed Kurgan valley because it's covered with old burial mounds, but yes, it's probably the entire plain region of what is now Mongolia and more western, along the Tundra/permafrost regions.
    PIE undoubtedly originated in the western steppe, certainly not in Mongolia or anywhere. Where are these supposed ancient Kurgans exactly?

    Where also horses originate.
    I guess you mean where horses were first domesticated. But that was most plausibly in the western steppe, too.
    Perhaps the Botai culture from Kazakhstan cultivated horses even earlier but that's still 1.500 kms from the border of Mongolia. And genetically the Botai people are not related to the PIE, just like their horses, if they were really domesticated ones to begin with, aren't related to modern horses (or those used by ancient Europeans) because they are related to the Przewalski's horse that split from the lineage of modern horse 40.000 years ago.


    But it's maybe not one wave only, but several, as shown here
    Sorry but were did you get this (entirely wrong) map from and what is the "evidence" of the author?

    But farming was invented in the "fertile belt" (middle east), along with dairy farming, not in the (north-)west.
    Isnt this rather a "cultural export" than one that depends on populations to bring it with them.

    And it wasnt an all-positive invention, early settlements (Kybicly Tepe (sp?)/Anatolia) show devastating effects on health conditions of the early "only settlers", physically weak, malnutritioned, bad teeth, caries and plagues. And the origin of the idea that "god" punished humans. This twisted view however is a recent import to Europe, before that we revered mother nature, also still with the careful and slow adoption of farming and animals from there.
    I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. I spoke about a genetic component originally related to Anatolian farmers, who migrated to Europe at the beginning of the Neolithic, where, in the Late Neolithic, the incoming IEs mixed with their descendants (who by the time also had acquired WHG ancestry) to form the Corded Ware Culture. The latter at some point re-expanded eastwards and formed the, already mentioned, Sintashta culture which even later spread into the Middle East and South Asia.

    Back then it was basically impossible for an idea to spread without an accompanying migration of some sort. And if the change we see archaeologically (and anthropology) is rapid, chances are, that the migration was big. And that's certainly what we see at the beginning of the Neolithic in Europe and it's confirmed by ancient DNA.

    A while ago I saw or read somewhere that Doggerland was probably longer settled than previously thought.
    Also consider that the modern coast line is very recent (*sing* Heut bin ich über Runghold gefahren, die Stadt ging unter vor sechshundert Jahren...). Runghold is now sunk in the Wattenmeer, 800 years ago the coast line was much farther out in what is now the North Sea, many kilometers farther out. This is not an ancient event, but very recently rather.
    Helgoland, which is now a high-sea island far away from any mainland, used to be one of our ancient Germanic holy places, maybe dating back to times where high-sea sea faring was not yet possible. Makes no sense, but it does when you consider the sea level to be much lower. There were probably times when you could see Helgoland from the mainland settlements and just had to "paddle" a bit to get there. The sea level didnt rise from superlow during the Ice Age to the now status in one single, sudden event, it's an ongoing development that ate away from Doggerland in several waves, some of them occuring when we've been already here and even one in recorded history.
    Many things are possible, of course, but regardless of how much longer traces of Doggerland might have remained, I don't see any reason why that should be the Germanic Urheimat, out of all places, instead of southern Scandinavia and/or northern Germany. From there we have reasonable archaeological and toponymic evidence at least.
    And the day they sold us out, Our hearts grew cold
    'Cause we were never asked, No brother, we were told!
    What do they know of Europe, Who only Europe know?



    Ancient DNA: List of All Studies analyzing DNA of Ancient Tribes and Ethnicities(post-2010)


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    Norwegians "Nordic Master race"? Never to Swedes
    and even less in the future as importance of oil becomes smaller.

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    It is common knowledge here that the purest Nordic / Dolichocephalic - Long Faced types are from Stockholm / Eastern Svealand.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ţoreiđar View Post
    When is this migration supposed to have occurred?

    And what points to them migrating from Dacia, specifically? There was plenty of other lands not covered in ice.
    Since you wanted a more precise answer, here it is:

    A huge research, from the University of Cambridge, ended around the first world war (reference 1 from bibliography), comes to the conclusion that the original habitat from which the Aryan populations came, located between the Indian and Atlantic Ocean, can be delimited in the following way (p. 68):

    "Is there any part of Europe which combines pastoral and agricultural country in close connexion, which has in combination hot low-lying plains suitable for the growth of grain, and rich upland pasture suitable for flocks and herds, and at the same time trees and birds of the character already described?

    There is apparently only one such area in Europe, the area which is bounded on its eastern side by the Carpathians, on its south by the Balkans, on its western side by the Austrian Alps and the Böhmer Wald, and on the north by the Erzgebirge and the mountains which link them up with the Carpathians."

    After showing how the Indians, the Persians, the Antique Greeks, the Latins, the Celts, the Germans and the Slavs migrated from this space, the same researchers add (1, p. 71):

    "The exact manner or the exact date, at which these movements took place we cannot tell, but there is no reason to suppose that any of them antedate at earliest the third millennium B.C."


    Referring to the causes that determined these movement of populations, these authors tell us (p. 72):

    "The same causes, though in different degrees, were operative then which have produced movements of peoples in historical times, one of the most pressing probably being the growth of the population in a limited areal."


    So, according to the University of Cambridge, the Carpathian, Getic, Walachian Space represented in the old antiquity Officina gentium, it provided with population and civilization all the areas mentioned on page 71: India, Persia, Ancient Greece, Italy, France, England, Germany and the so called Slavic Space.
    More in the thread: The Geto-Dacian Origin Of The Germanics and The Geto-Dacians As Germanics (I hope the thread will be back!)
    Die Farben duften frisch und grün... Lieblich haucht der Wind um mich.

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