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Thread: Lab-grown Burgers 'Will Be on the Menu by 2020'

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    Lab-grown Burgers 'Will Be on the Menu by 2020'

    As an assumed carnivore, I'm curious as how it would impact the current system of the meat market.

    Scientists set up company to make stem cell meat an affordable reality Lab-grown burger from bovine stem cells could be on sale within 5 years. In 2013, the team cooked and ate a burger that cost £215,000 to produce The 142g 'cultured beef' patty, developed at Maastricht University, was lightly fried in a butter and oil and took three months to grow.


    Sources:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...e-reality.html

    http://www.futurefood.org/in-vitro-meat/index_en.php

    And here's an interesting video:

    https://www.facebook.com/humansofthe...6218415535841/

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    Humans have evolved to eat a mixed diet which includes meat. But killing to get meat when other foods are available is objectionable to some people. Still, those same people seem to eat meat as the craving for meat becomes too strong. Meat supplies fat and protein as well as iron which we need to feel strong.

    This idea of lab grown burgers does appeal to me as there will be no moral conflicts about satisfying meat cravings and fulfilling nutrient requirements because nothing is being killed.

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    Humans are meant to eat meat, meat is a natural product. I understand that meat now is raised on an industrial level, but I think this goes too far.

    Killing your own meat is a natural act, we are more and more removing ourselves from nature. When we remove ourselves too far from nature we become weak and even possible lose our respect for nature and life.

    If you don't like meat, don't eat it. If you don't like hunting don't hunt. But, never try and enforce your will on others when it comes to killing animals and hunting.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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    I'm not against this in theory. I don't see it as being any different in principle than eating an omelette.

    I wouldn't however, pay a premium for "vat grown" meat. In fact it would need to be cheaper than regular meat to tempt me and I would need to be absolutely sure it was healthy and, it might take some years to convince myself of that.

    One advantage of vat-grown meat might be that it could reduce the environmental footprint of meat production. Atm the earths available pasture land is just about maxed-out and yet the demand for meat continues to increase.

    The way things are going the worlds remaining rain forests will be the price of the insatiable demand for meat. If a vat-grown alternative that was healthy and safe to eat was developed and led to a slowing of the process of deforestation then so much the better.
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    I'm with SB on this I think it is too far, it removes us from nature even more. I'm against massive factory farming for the same reasons, it only exists via our artificially exploded population.. I'm also of the opinion that unless you've killed, prepared and eaten an animal yourself at least once you really can't understand that essential part of being human and perhaps you should, or just abstain from eating meat entirely.(again a ridiculous thing mainly enabled by modern industrial society..)

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post

    One advantage of vat-grown meat might be that it could reduce the environmental footprint of meat production. Atm the earths available pasture land is just about maxed-out and yet the demand for meat continues to increase.

    The way things are going the worlds remaining rain forests will be the price of the insatiable demand for meat. If a vat-grown alternative that was healthy and safe to eat was developed and led to a slowing of the process of deforestation then so much the better.
    I disagree with our pasture lands being maxed out. Livestock is being farmed on an industrial scale because of economic reasons ( higher profit yields ). If you look at North America as an example before European settlement there were mass herds of animals on the plains of the US and Canada. So mass in fact that a single herd might run past you for days, this was reported on many cases by the explorers.

    There is still an abundance of un-used land here. While I'm totally against modern industrial style farming, there is still a lot of land to be used yet. IMHO at least here in America and Canada we need to get back to small farms and quit trying to feed the whole world with just a few grain crops.

    Vat grown meat is just weird science looking for making a profit. I shudder to think of the chemicals used in this. I think the taste would be very bland, when eating an animal the taste of the meat is affected by diet. Slow grown grass fed beef in much better than grain fed beef in both texture and taste. Industrial raised hogs ( something I know a lot about ) have less fat and less taste than traditional raised hogs. I don't want a dry pork chop, I want something juicy and full of flavor and texture. I like to see and taste the blood coming out of my beef steak.

    I think overall we need to stop feeding these third world countries that are overpopulating at an alarming rate. This would also stop the immigration of these useless populations into our lands.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    I disagree with our pasture lands being maxed out. Livestock is being farmed on an industrial scale because of economic reasons ( higher profit yields ). If you look at North America as an example before European settlement there were mass herds of animals on the plains of the US and Canada. So mass in fact that a single herd might run past you for days, this was reported on many cases by the explorers.
    Today in the U.S alone there are 90 million head of cattle.

    By comparison, it is estimated that the population of wild Bison in the U.S and Canada reached a peak of about 60 million animals.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_bison

    And that was before they had to share space with millions of Hogs, Chickens and 300 million humans...

    I'm pretty sure that if you went from modern industrial farming back to pasture raising cattle you would see the herd numbers dropping sharply and the price of beef rise sharply as a result.


    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    There is still an abundance of un-used land here. While I'm totally against modern industrial style farming, there is still a lot of land to be used yet.
    Is there really though? I think you'll find that most of the apparently empty grassland you may be thinking of is being used for something. Usually either for hay or corn to feed the animals in the feed lots. If potential agricultural land really is going unused it is almost always because it is too dry to support grass, livestock or much of anything else.


    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    IMHO at least here in America and Canada we need to get back to small farms and quit trying to feed the whole world with just a few grain crops.
    The meat produced from small farms is ok for those who can afford to buy "grass-fed" beef. While it is good stuff and I prefer it myself, not everyone can afford to buy it, least of all working people with young families. I think they should have the option of buying cheaper factory raised beef if they want to, assuming the animals are not being too badly treated.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    Vat grown meat is just weird science looking for making a profit. I shudder to think of the chemicals used in this.
    "Vat-grown meat" does sound weird but the only important question to me is "will it be healthy?"And that remains to be seen.

    As for vat-grown meat separating us from nature, well unless you're a professional hunter it seems to me that just about every aspect of the modern way of life separates you from nature already. If you want to feel connected with nature just go on a fishing or hunting trip once in a while.



    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    Industrial raised hogs ( something I know a lot about ) have less fat and less taste than traditional raised hogs. I don't want a dry pork chop, I want something juicy and full of flavor and texture. I like to see and taste the blood coming out of my beef steak.
    I have nothing to disagree with you about here. Certainly grass fed beef or traditionally raised pork is tasty and will almost certainly be more tasty than vat grown meat.

    However, I still think that if a food is cheap, relatively healthy, and not damaging the environment then it should be an option for people to avail of if they wish, no matter how "weird" it might seem at first glance.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    I think overall we need to stop feeding these third world countries that are overpopulating at an alarming rate. This would also stop the immigration of these useless populations into our lands.
    Some way has to be found to limit population growth in the 3rd world. I grant you that, but banning the export of grain to those countries isn't the way. It just wouldn't be a politically viable option.

    For a start, the grain producers would go nuts. The price of their product would plummet and half of them would go out of business. Not even Trump would suggest that as a policy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    Today in the U.S alone there are 90 million head of cattle.

    By comparison, it is estimated that the population of wild Bison in the U.S and Canada reached a peak of about 60 million animals.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_bison

    And that was before they had to share space with millions of Hogs, Chickens and 300 million humans...

    I'm pretty sure that if you went from modern industrial farming back to pasture raising cattle you would see the herd numbers dropping sharply and the price of beef rise sharply as a result.




    Is there really though? I think you'll find that most of the apparently empty grassland you may be thinking of is being used for something. Usually either for hay or corn to feed the animals in the feed lots. If potential agricultural land really is going unused it is almost always because it is too dry to support grass, livestock or much of anything else.




    The meat produced from small farms is ok for those who can afford to buy "grass-fed" beef. While it is good stuff and I prefer it myself, not everyone can afford to buy it, least of all working people with young families. I think they should have the option of buying cheaper factory raised beef if they want to, assuming the animals are not being too badly treated.



    "Vat-grown meat" does sound weird but the only important question to me is "will it be healthy?"And that remains to be seen.

    As for vat-grown meat separating us from nature, well unless you're a professional hunter it seems to me that just about every aspect of the modern way of life separates you from nature already. If you want to feel connected with nature just go on a fishing or hunting trip once in a while.





    I have nothing to disagree with you about here. Certainly grass fed beef or traditionally raised pork is tasty and will almost certainly be more tasty than vat grown meat.

    However, I still think that if a food is cheap, relatively healthy, and not damaging the environment then it should be an option for people to avail of if they wish, no matter how "weird" it might seem at first glance.



    Some way has to be found to limit population growth in the 3rd world. I grant you that, but banning the export of grain to those countries isn't the way. It just wouldn't be a politically viable option.

    For a start, the grain producers would go nuts. The price of their product would plummet and half of them would go out of business. Not even Trump would suggest that as a policy.
    Well to most of what you posted....... No.

    I live in rural America and I farm, I travel across the country at least once a year there are millions and millions of un-used prime farm land acres in America. I come from a farming family who still farms. My education is in agriculture. I raise hogs and cattle as a pass time and for extra cash.

    The big grain producers in North America are not even farmers they are banks working of government handouts. There has been many studies on micro/small farming and it is very successful and "green" compared to these waste lands of just row crop farming.

    These third world countries that get grain from the US and Canada don't actually pay for the grain our governments actually just give it to them. We produce so much food here that the US government actually pays farmers not to grow food. If we would actually think about small farms and the employment of people on small farms instead of going so industrial urban the market would actually stabilize itself very quickly.

    In the 1980s Ronald Reagan stopped giving grain to our then biggest "customer" the USSR. It did not effect the farm market that much. In fact it raised the cost of tillable land.

    I can in fact grow enough food on just what I mow for my lawn to feed at least 20 families of four. My lawn is not even that big compared to others in rural America....how's that for wasted land. Just sitting there growing grass that has to be mowed once or twice a week.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    I live in rural America and I farm, I travel across the country at least once a year there are millions and millions of un-used prime farm land acres in America.
    All I can say is my sources differ. From what I've read there isn't an abundance of unused prime agricultural land in the U.S (and anyway it doesn't stand to reason that there would be). If land can make money its going to get used.The unused land, if any, is going to be marginal land.

    On the contrary, large areas of prime agriculture land are being lost to urban development on an ongoing basis. in fact if reports are true, you're losing an acre a minute;

    " -In America, we’ve been losing more than an acre of farmland per minute.
    From 2002 to 2007…4,080,300 acres of AGRICULTURAL land were transformed for developed uses—an area nearly the size of Massachusetts and 7,491,300 acres of RURAL land were converted to developed uses—an area nearly the size of Maryland.
    -Every state has lost prime farmland over the past 25 years.
    States with the biggest losses included Texas (1.5 million acres), Ohio (796,000 acres), North Carolina (766,000 acres), California (616,000 acres) and Georgia (566,000 acres).
    -Our food is increasingly in the path of development.
    91% of our fruit and 78% of our vegetables are produced in urban-influenced areas.
    -Wasteful land use is the problem, not growth itself.
    From 1982 to 2007, the United States population grew by 30 percent. During the same time period, developed land increased 57 percent."

    http://content.auburn.edu/air/2013/0...-be-concerned/

    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    There has been many studies on micro/small farming and it is very successful and "green" compared to these waste lands of just row crop farming.
    Well I'd like to see some of those studies you are referring to. Afaik small farms produce more expensive food, and as a result often fail to turn a profit at all. That is true of small farms everywhere in the industrialised world and it's why they are losing out to larger producers.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    These third world countries that get grain from the US and Canada don't actually pay for the grain our governments actually just give it to them. We produce so much food here that the US government actually pays farmers not to grow food.
    I agree that dumping "free" grain on the markets of third world countries is a disastrous idea. For on thing it forces third world farmers out of business. No producer can compete with a "free" product after all.

    However, paying farmers to produce nothing is done in Europe as well. And while it seems wrong and unfair on the surface, there is a reason for it. The practice is necessary in order to maintain price-stability. Otherwise in bumper years, production would outstrip demand, prices would collapse and as a result farmers would go out of business. Then the next year prices would shoot up higher than they were before, perhaps to the point where masses of people were in food poverty.

    So just because you have farmers "paid not to grow food" that doesn't mean you have all this surplus capacity at your disposal. You need that unused land as a pressure valve in the food production system in order to maintain stability in the farming industry and prevent wild price fluctuations.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    If we would actually think about small farms and the employment of people on small farms instead of going so industrial urban the market would actually stabilize itself very quickly.
    There are a number of problems with that vision. Firstly, small farms generally aren't economically viable by themselves. The small farmer needs another job in addition to farming in order to "keep the show on the road" so to speak. I know, my father is a small farmer. Which leads to the second and even less tractable problem; not everyone wants to be a part-time farmer!

    Farming is a skill that takes years to acquire and then when you have learned it you're chained to your farm. You can't for instance decide to move to the other end of the country to pursue a more lucrative job opportunity, instead you have to stay and tend your barely-viable small farm.

    A small farm can, more than anything else, be an economic mill-stone around the neck of the individual unfortunate enough to inherit it. Being a small-holder is just not a very attractive solution for very many people in today's economy.

    The proof of that is that very few small farms are being bought by non-farmers. Rather they are being bought up by big farmers and amalgamated into super-farms. That is with few exceptions about the only way to make money from farming.

    In the 1980s Ronald Reagan stopped giving grain to our then biggest "customer" the USSR. It did not effect the farm market that much. In fact it raised the cost of tillable land.
    I'd need more details to draw any conclusions form that at all. Perhaps the amount of grain that was being given away was not enough to affect the market one way or another? Or perhaps the grain ended up being sold elsewhere for $$$? In which case of course the value of tillable land should increase. In any case I presume the value of tillable land in the U.S is increasing all the time anyway. It is after all a diminishing resource.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpearBrave View Post
    I can in fact grow enough food on just what I mow for my lawn to feed at least 20 families of four. My lawn is not even that big compared to others in rural America....how's that for wasted land. Just sitting there growing grass that has to be mowed once or twice a week.
    If by "waste land" you were referring to the lawns and golf courses etc of the U.S then of course there is waste land available on which to grow food. But you'd accept I think that there would need to be near mass-starvation before the 18th hole at Augusta is sprouting oats..

    This idea of everyone growing their own food in their back yard or an allotment is fine in principle, its just never going to happen. The closest 99% of people are ever going to get to that is playing farmville on facebook.

    But when and if the environment is so damaged that food prices are so high that people are forced to grow food in their back yards they will look back with nostalgia at today when we had the leisure to just work a job 10 or 12 hours a day and then come home and watch the TV or surf the net instead of going out and digging potatoes in the back yard for supper...
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    All I can say is my sources differ. From what I've read there isn't an abundance of unused prime agricultural land in the U.S (and anyway it doesn't stand to reason that there would be). If land can make money its going to get used.The unused land, if any, is going to be marginal land.

    On the contrary, large areas of prime agriculture land are being lost to urban development on an ongoing basis. in fact if reports are true, you're losing an acre a minute;
    That is select areas of the country. here in the Midwest there is depopulation going on in many rural areas. This is a whole other case as to why this is happening, but it is cultural.

    I don't need any study to show you how much prime land is being unused. Just rent a car in mid America drive backroads for several days and take a look for yourself. Trust me if you look and can size up the amount of acres in a field you can add up enough unused farm land to equal the size of a small European country.



    Well I'd like to see some of those studies you are referring to. Afaik small farms produce more expensive food, and as a result often fail to turn a profit at all. That is true of small farms everywhere in the industrialised world and it's why they are losing out to larger producers.
    I can just point you to my brothers produce operation. 20 acres 6 of which are in use. Two full time employees Two seasonal employees. His business has been literally growing for the last seven years. He is not growing grain, but labor intensive veggies.

    I agree that dumping "free" grain on the markets of third world countries is a disastrous idea. For on thing it forces third world farmers out of business. No producer can compete with a "free" product after all.
    It causes over population, why should we even care if there is famine in Africa, maybe they should practice better population control and quit breeding beyond the carrying capacity of their lands.

    However, paying farmers to produce nothing is done in Europe as well. And while it seems wrong and unfair on the surface, there is a reason for it. The practice is necessary in order to maintain price-stability. Otherwise in bumper years, production would outstrip demand, prices would collapse and as a result farmers would go out of business. Then the next year prices would shoot up higher than they were before, perhaps to the point where masses of people were in food poverty.

    So just because you have farmers "paid not to grow food" that doesn't mean you have all this surplus capacity at your disposal. You need that unused land as a pressure valve in the food production system in order to maintain stability in the farming industry and prevent wild price fluctuations.
    The problem with your thoughts here are on how we base things. I am almost 50 years old and I don't remember a mass crop failure in my life. Even during bad years, there was still no total mass crop failure.

    There are a number of problems with that vision. Firstly, small farms generally aren't economically viable by themselves. The small farmer needs another job in addition to farming in order to "keep the show on the road" so to speak. I know, my father is a small farmer. Which leads to the second and even less tractable problem; not everyone wants to be a part-time farmer!

    Farming is a skill that takes years to acquire and then when you have learned it you're chained to your farm. You can't for instance decide to move to the other end of the country to pursue a more lucrative job opportunity, instead you have to stay and tend your barely-viable small farm.

    A small farm can, more than anything else, be an economic mill-stone around the neck of the individual unfortunate enough to inherit it. Being a small-holder is just not a very attractive solution for very many people in today's economy.

    The proof of that is that very few small farms are being bought by non-farmers. Rather they are being bought up by big farmers and amalgamated into super-farms. That is with few exceptions about the only way to make money from farming.
    This the one or two row crop ( grain ) mentality. This is the biggest problem to modern agriculture. We have to stop thinking in terms of grain. With grain you need bigger equipment to farm bigger land. That bigger equipment means bigger debt. So, As I stated above who is behind this big farm mentality, the banks are. They own the land via loans and they own the equipment via loans, so they own the what is called the farm industry standard.

    Ever wonder why Amish farms are 100 acres or less? Yet, the Amish seem to always have surplus money to buy more land for the many children they have. So, I guess small scale farming is just a losing cause for them?

    Not everybody in the world needs to be a super tech geek or sheep living in the industrial zone. In fact from a preservationist point of view we need to turn away from these things. Let the muds have the cities and let them kill each other and starve.


    If by "waste land" you were referring to the lawns and golf courses etc of the U.S then of course there is waste land available on which to grow food. But you'd accept I think that there would need to be near mass-starvation before the 18th hole at Augusta is sprouting oats..
    No, I really mean actual good land being unused.

    This idea of everyone growing their own food in their back yard or an allotment is fine in principle, its just never going to happen. The closest 99% of people are ever going to get to that is playing farmville on facebook.

    But when and if the environment is so damaged that food prices are so high that people are forced to grow food in their back yards they will look back with nostalgia at today when we had the leisure to just work a job 10 or 12 hours a day and then come home and watch the TV or surf the net instead of going out and digging potatoes in the back yard for supper...
    I grow enough food to feed a family of five to six in my "kitchen garden". The size of my is 30' x 60', I rotate my plants and use early, middle and late plantings. I preserve what I need for the winter plus extra and I give the rest away to people I like. I spend about 20 to 30 minutes a day in my garden, plus a Saturday here and there preserving food. I would not call that a huge time drain. I still have plenty of time to read, debate with people here, go hunting, fishing and walking plus work a full time job. One thing I don't do is farcebook or twitter or watch TV. Hell, I don't even own a TV and most likely never will again.

    Perhaps people should grow their own food more, they might get closer to nature and closer to who they really are.

    This whole lab grown meat thing is about profit and nothing more. It is just another farce of the modern world that we can do without.
    Life is like a fire hydrant- sometimes you help people put out their fires, but most of the time you just get peed on by every dog in the neighborhood.

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