View Poll Results: Is Political Violence Ever Justified?

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  • Yes, always..and I'll explain why..

    5 19.23%
  • No, never..and I'll explain why..

    3 11.54%
  • Sometimes in the right circumstances..and I'll explain why..

    16 61.54%
  • It is inevitable no matter what..and I'll explain why..

    2 7.69%
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Thread: Is Political Violence Ever Justified? / Is Violence a Legitimate Means of Changing Society?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Thrymheim's Avatar
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    Violence is perfectly acceptable as a means of change, it is not the only means but it is one of the most effective ones at radical change over a short space of time. The problems start after the violence stops and there is no effective means of control/leadership in place to take over.
    Cattle die, kinsmen die,
    the self must also die;
    but glory never dies,
    For the one who is able to achieve it.

    Sayings of the High One.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Patrioten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrymheim View Post
    Violence is perfectly acceptable as a means of change, it is not the only means but it is one of the most effective ones at radical change over a short space of time. The problems start after the violence stops and there is no effective means of control/leadership in place to take over.
    Yes. Realistically, how would a coup work out in this day and age? The old standard bearer of tradition and elitism that has been the corner stone of most coups in the past, the officers corps and the army, has been reduced to a shadow of its former self (and the reactionary elements have either died off or been cleansed out). The civil servants of today are universally liberal and socialist and you wont be able to draw support from that group either. Unions are more powerful than ever and wouldn't face any difficulties in rallying the troops in defence of "European values" of democracy, diversity and tolerance. You wont be able to get support from the middle class either, they prefer to remain docile and uninvolved.

    This leaves you with young, aggressive and uneducated individuals from the lower classes of society to fill up your revolutionary cadres with. It would be ridicilous to think that a coup today would have any chance of success.

  3. #33
    Schimmelreiter
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    Yes, very good. The Kapp-Lüttwitz Putsch, for example, failed to secure the cooperation of the bureaucracy despite having military forces on its side. And this problem could not even be solved by force, because a general strike blocked any such attempt. On the other hand, many of these bureaucrats turned coat within a very short time span, although they remained a limited problem, and then reverted back after the collapse. This applies even more to the masses.

    I think the best that any group trying to change society could do is to find people in the functional elites and/or help their people advance there. What ultimately motivates the loyalty of key personnel is the opportunity to advance further by riding on a political wave. The other components have their role to play as well, but degrading the loyalty of people the state depends on is an important task the Weimar government failed to impede with all means at its disposal.

  4. #34
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    I think violence shouldn't be used because I am a tree-hugging hippie who thinks that we should just all love each other and hug the world for the sake of world peace, because love is all you need. :grouphug

    Just kidding.

    But I do feel that violence is to be used as an ultima ratio, and that only as much violence should be used as is necessary to maintain order.

    Do I consider violence moral? Certainly not. Do I consider violence legitimate? Nope. But do I consider it effective? It depends.

    In a way, there is no such thing as reasonable force, but you can forcibly bring people to reason: Violence or the threat thereof can be a means, when all other options fail. As such, violence should be of a constructive purpose, and to be only the last, physical part of a battle - destructive violence will get us nowhere.

    If you keep public order, by the protection the populace offered by its army - then it is constructive: Because you are using it to safe-guard against those who would upset it. Patrolling the streets is not something I am particularly fond of, but if it safe-guards the values and fundament that society is built upon, then it is legitimate and effective.

    However, if we go along to beat up Turks, or use a putsch to get rid of a corrupt system - where will that get us, if we do not foster a patriotic feeling in the people, by not making our voice heard instead. We'd be rid of the system, and we'd be rid of the Turks - but what are we going to replace it with --- and what will the populace in general think: They'd still be polluted by the same way of thinking as before.

    I much favour it if we campaign in favour of traditional, conservative, patriotic values, instill pride in people that things can be different. Hand out leaflets, participate in demonstrations, sign petitions, campaign on a large scale to sweep the populace along. That way - when we are in a position to change the status quo - it will come naturally.

    But if instead we use violence to destroy the status quo - we will have nothing of our own to offer to replace it with: And instead of creating a new order, we have solely destroyed the old, leaving all in shatters and anarchy.

    Our stride should be positive and constructive, the violence used should be minimal and only as an ultima ratio where necessary. The revolution must come from the people and from the heart, not from the show of the fist and sword. Only that way can it be constructive.

    Sure, you can mission by the sword: Let's take Charlemagne. He converted the Saxons by holding a crucifix in one hand and a sword in the other - but just how much did he destroy by that, when we compare it to the more peaceful conversion that took place in for example Iceland? A different one of his policies was much wiser - he told the Saxons that they would be safe from family feuds in a church, that is why they would build them rather than destroy them.

    We should take an example from history: Force is always an ultima ratio, and constructive folk building will always take precedence, because rather than destroying that which is, it pushes it aside by the sweeping force (pardon the pun) of the power which its ideas bring. That is what happened in 1848 and 1989 - the change happened because the people wanted it, not because of a forceful putsch.

    Violence instead of words, propaganda and constructivism are the means our enemies use: Are we going to let ourselves down to their level?! I shall hope not.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    I look at it more from the perspective of self-defense. I will attempt to live my life as free as I can until society tries to change me. At the point where I feel so infringed that I can no longer maintain my own liberty, then I feel violence is justified.
    I very much agree. I imagine it like someone threatening my house or family. I won't try forcing someone's door or entering their house. But if someone does it to mine, I won't turn the other cheek. I will defend myself as I can. The nations are like houses and the ethnicities are like families. If someone threatens them, then it's justified to react.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Kiel's Avatar
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    Is Violence a Legitimate Means of Changing Society?

    Yes, it is. The enemy will swarm over you and consume you until he fears you.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    I very much agree. I imagine it like someone threatening my house or family. I won't try forcing someone's door or entering their house. But if someone does it to mine, I won't turn the other cheek. I will defend myself as I can. The nations are like houses and the ethnicities are like families. If someone threatens them, then it's justified to react.
    Pretty much sums up my view. Well said!

  8. #38
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    Is Political Violence Ever Justified? / Is Violence a Legitimate Means of Changing Society?

    Is or can political violence ever be justified? As tensions mount up we will most likely see more violence from both sides, as it stands with both state endorsed from the Left and reactionary for the de-facto Right. What are your opinions on this?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Englisc's Avatar
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    No, never. I almost refrain from discussing the tactics - violence outside of self defense is inherently morally wrong.

    But I do not think it makes sense most of the time in terms of tactics. The vast majority of people will not respond well to attacks like that on Jo Cox and will think it makes nationalists look like mentally unstable extremists. I've said before that there is no easy route to a solution to our troubles, but we should try to convince other people of our arguments. That does mean a degree of moderation and pushing the fringier elements of the nationalist coalition to the back.

    Even if you kill one, it is still a fact that, for example, 9 million people voted for Labour at the last election. There are many 1000s, millions infact, more where people like Jo Cox came from. Some talk of insurrection but any kind of uprising would be quickly crushed by the police or army.

    As a nationalist I do not feel any connection to Tommy Mair - he suffered mental problems but the point still stands - even though we share some beliefs. The values these kind of people have are not mine.

  10. #40
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    I think it can be if done in self-defense.

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