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Thread: The Forgotten Legacy of Germanic Scotland

  1. #51
    Senior Member Wayfarer's Avatar
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by KULL
    Rhydderch isn't anti-Germanic from what i know. Perhaps you're a bit hurted by the fact you aren't germanic, rather something other...........
    Ethno-linguistically and culturally i am. Im not hurted dont you worry about me .
    When you finish galavantin with [Edit: ad hominem removed.] maybe you can explain,

    How the situation in Scotland is the same as Ireland,
    why you seem to think Scotland is not Germanic,
    why you think a germanic language was spread in Scotland because of the influence of England,
    and what that something other is?
    Last edited by Siegmund; Wednesday, November 2nd, 2005 at 11:36 PM. Reason: Rule 3.
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
    Gyff fredome failyhe, for fre liking
    Is yharnyt our all other thing.
    Na he that ay has levyt fre
    May nocht knaw weill the propyrte
    The angyr na the wrechyt dome
    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
    Bot gyff he had assayit it.
    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


    Scots is our mother tongue; and if we do not preserve it,
    nobody will preserve it for us.

  2. #52
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer
    How the situation in Scotland is the same as Ireland,
    I've already explained that for you.
    why you seem to think Scotland is not Germanic,
    Perhaps you could tell us why you think Scotland is Germanic. I can understand why someone might claim that some areas of the south are equivalent to Lancashire or West Yorkshire, but why the rest?

    why you think a germanic language was spread in Scotland because of the influence of England,
    And perhaps you could also explain why the official language of Scotland suddenly switched from Gaelic to Inglis simply because the latter happened to be spoken at a local level by the population of a province in the south-east.

    and what that something other is?
    Well, that's up to you to elaborate on that

  3. #53
    Senior Member Wayfarer's Avatar
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    [Edit: ad hominem removed.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    I've already explained that for you.
    Perhaps you could tell us why you think Scotland is Germanic. I can understand why someone might claim that some areas of the south are equivalent to Lancashire or West Yorkshire, but why the rest?
    I think Cumbria and Northumberland are better examples than Lancashire and West Yorkshire. Not only do they speak similar but they also have the same Rievers heritage. I cant see why anyone would initially compare southern Scotland to Lancs and West Yorks.

    I have never on this thread claimed that the whole of Scotland was/is Germanic. I thought that was pretty clear. Im only talking about Lallanders.
    There is the Celtic Realm forum for discussions on Celtic Scotland however that misses out the Germanic side of Scotland which is a great shame to see on a Germanic site hence why it is important that Skadi does not ignore the Lowlanders giving its dominante position in Scotland.



    And perhaps you could also explain why the official language of Scotland suddenly switched from Gaelic to Inglis simply because the latter happened to be spoken at a local level by the population of a province in the south-east.
    Old Northumbrian has been spoken in Scotland since the early dark ages. In the Lothians initially. In about 1018 The Scots took control of the Lothians in which King Malcom the second granted the Angles there the right to have their own language and customs. This was to prove fatal to Gaelic as this was the reason that Inglis (later to be known as Scots) started to dominate most of Scotland. Soon after in 1066 following the Norman Conquests in England there was a huge influx of anglo-saxon refugees into Scotland which further boosted the Inglis language. Even before this there is evidence that Angles had been making some inroads into Strathclyde. In the same year as the Lothians being incoporated into Alba, the King of Strathclyde died without a heir and King Malcom II grandson Duncan took over. This opened up Strathclyde for the expansion of the successful Angles. Duncan was killed in and Malcolm took over the whole of Scotland. He married an english Princess who fled to Scotland too following the Norman invasions of England and she played a big part in introducing Anglic customs and language into the Gaelic monarchy.
    By the 12th century according to the The Scots dialect dictionary New Lanark,2000, Inglis was dominating the entire southern Lowlands including Strathclyde bar South Ayrshire and Galloway.
    Inglis speakers were beginning to dominate in the courts that by after the 12th C the Scottish courts were speaking Inglis at the expense of Gaelic.
    you can see the expanding and increasing influence of Inglis. The Angles originally just from one part of the Kingdom of Scotland started to form an elite within Scotland.
    By the mid 13th century Inglis was dominant in Central Scotland between the Clyde and the Forth. It even spread way up North in the Moray Firth. By the 14th century it was spoken as far North as Caithness and then on to the Northern Isles where it would eventually replace Norn.
    By the 15th century Inglis became known as Scots most likely because of a growing national awareness.
    Inglis/Scots was an strong expanding force ever since the Lothians was incorporated into Scotland.
    So the development of Scots (Inglis) was an internal change.

    This is a completely different situtation to what happened in Ireland.


    Well, that's up to you to elaborate on that [/QUOTE]

    [Edit: ad hominem removed.]
    Last edited by Siegmund; Wednesday, November 2nd, 2005 at 11:37 PM. Reason: Rule 3.
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
    Gyff fredome failyhe, for fre liking
    Is yharnyt our all other thing.
    Na he that ay has levyt fre
    May nocht knaw weill the propyrte
    The angyr na the wrechyt dome
    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
    Bot gyff he had assayit it.
    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


    Scots is our mother tongue; and if we do not preserve it,
    nobody will preserve it for us.

  4. #54
    "Du bist das Bild, das ich in mir barg..."
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    Post AW: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    This thread was a most enlightening and enjoyable one for quite a few posts. Care to get back to it?

    Perhaps citing sources for your arguments would help resolve matters. Just a thought...

  5. #55
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Edit: ad hominens removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer
    You done that in such great latin style.
    Guidbye
    I'd like to meet you in the real life, Scottish. We could be good friends. I'm sure
    Last edited by Siegmund; Thursday, November 3rd, 2005 at 12:19 AM. Reason: Rule 3.

  6. #56
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    You're luck Wayfarer, my answer has been removed by the rules . Anyway my last statement is true. I'd like to meet you (in pacific way )

  7. #57
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by KULL
    You're luck Wayfarer, my answer has been removed by the rules . Anyway my last statement is true. I'd like to meet you (in pacific way )
    Dont worry, i read it before it got removed.

    Who knows maybe one day and i can show you the other side of scotland

    Take care.
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
    Gyff fredome failyhe, for fre liking
    Is yharnyt our all other thing.
    Na he that ay has levyt fre
    May nocht knaw weill the propyrte
    The angyr na the wrechyt dome
    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
    Bot gyff he had assayit it.
    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


    Scots is our mother tongue; and if we do not preserve it,
    nobody will preserve it for us.

  8. #58
    Account Inactive Huzar's Avatar
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer
    Dont worry, i read it before it got removed.

    Who knows maybe one day and i can show you the other side of scotland

    Take care.

    Take care

  9. #59
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer
    I think Cumbria and Northumberland are better examples than Lancashire and West Yorkshire. Not only do they speak similar but they also have the same Rievers heritage. I cant see why anyone would initially compare southern Scotland to Lancs and West Yorks.
    I'm basically referring to the degree of possible Germanic influence in these areas. Northumberland was taken over by the Angles in 547, whereas West Yorkshire, Lancashire and Lothian came under Anglian rule in the early to mid 600's.


    Im only talking about Lallanders.
    Yes, but apart from Galloway, the southeast is the only part of Scotland which came under Anglian rule for any significant time.


    There is the Celtic Realm forum for discussions on Celtic Scotland however that misses out the Germanic side of Scotland which is a great shame to see on a Germanic site hence why it is important that Skadi does not ignore the Lowlanders giving its dominante position in Scotland.
    I don't object to there being a section here on Scotland, since there are also sections on England and France, neither of which I regard as an integral part of the Germanic world. Both were formed after conquests by early Germanic peoples, and subjected to their influence. The same applies to parts of southern Scotland.


    Old Northumbrian has been spoken in Scotland since the early dark ages. In the Lothians initially. In about 1018 The Scots took control of the Lothians in which King Malcom the second granted the Angles there the right to have their own language and customs.
    What do you mean by 'he granted them the right'?


    This was to prove fatal to Gaelic as this was the reason that Inglis (later to be known as Scots) started to dominate most of Scotland. Soon after in 1066 following the Norman Conquests in England there was a huge influx of anglo-saxon refugees into Scotland which further boosted the Inglis language.
    Not huge, but there was an influx nonetheless.

    Even before this there is evidence that Angles had been making some inroads into Strathclyde.
    Strathclyde and Northumbria were rivals, and the former probably expanded and contracted at various times, depending on the fortunes of Northumbria.

    In the same year as the Lothians being incoporated into Alba, the King of Strathclyde died without a heir and King Malcom II grandson Duncan took over. This opened up Strathclyde for the expansion of the successful Angles.
    Lothian was now just another part of the realm of Scottish kings, and no longer had the power to expand, any more than Strathclyde or other provinces.

    Duncan was killed in and Malcolm took over the whole of Scotland. He married an english Princess who fled to Scotland too following the Norman invasions of England and she played a big part in introducing Anglic customs and language into the Gaelic monarchy.
    It was around this time, and the time of Malcolm's sons, that English influence became particularly strong, and often the Scottish kings were vassals of the English king. Feudalism began to enter from England at this time as well, and English reforms were introduced into the Scottish church.

    Malcolm's son brought Anglo-Norman aristocrats back into Scotland to help him gain the throne, and gave them large estates.

    It's clear that England was having a strong influence, and not just Lothian, although the presence of this province within Scotland must have hastened the adoption of English. But as in England, Norman French was also being widely used.

    By the 12th century according to the The Scots dialect dictionary New Lanark,2000, Inglis was dominating the entire southern Lowlands including Strathclyde bar South Ayrshire and Galloway.
    Do you mean the 1200's? Inglis had probably reached these areas by the 1200's, though I doubt that it was the native language of the people there. One can assume that it rapidly spread as an administrative language, once it became the primary language of the court.

    Inglis speakers were beginning to dominate in the courts that by after the 12th C the Scottish courts were speaking Inglis at the expense of Gaelic.
    you can see the expanding and increasing influence of Inglis. The Angles originally just from one part of the Kingdom of Scotland started to form an elite within Scotland.
    Inglis became the main language of the elite, rather than men of Lothian rising to power at the expense of others.

    Gaelic was still widely spoken in the Lowlands for a long time after this, but in general, no longer used in elite circles.

    By the 15th century Inglis became known as Scots most likely because of a growing national awareness.
    And probably because of increasing independence from England.

  10. #60
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    I find this thread bizarre to say the least.... To claim Scotland as a Germanic nation simply because of the fact, that there was a certain mixture of Germanics into the Celtic population is taking matters a bit far.
    It's a bit like saying Ireland is a Germanic nation, simply because there was a large influx of Germanics introduced by way of the Vikings and the Anglo-Normans.....
    While it may hold true, that area's such as the Lowlands of Scotland, and the Leinster/Ulster areas of Ireland have a large Germanic pedigree, that does not, for one minute change the fact that the majority of people in these regions identify themselves as Celts.

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