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Thread: The Forgotten Legacy of Germanic Scotland

  1. #41
    Senior Member Š■eling's Avatar
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    What is Germanic?

    For me it is a cultural-linguistic term. The Germanic peoples are/were those who spoke a Germanic language and shared a similiar culture, religion etc. In essence it is an ethnic term.

    The problem for today is how you define a modern Germanic nation? I would argue that it is impossible except for a few exceptions. Perhaps Norway, Sweden, Iceland are closest to a "pure" Germanic nation. It is the same as using the term Celtic. Many say Ireland is Celtic. Fair enough but you have to take into account various immigrations since the Gael tribes first settled there. Norse-Danes, English, Scots, and Welsh, Bretons have all settled in Ireland. Incidentely the majority of Irish speak a Germanic tongue, English. To say that Ireland is Celtic, or that England is Germanic is, of course, a state of mind and does not necessarily fit the actual definitions of the terms.

    Most nations have been shaped by various cultural impacts. England is one such. Go back a thousand years and England was solidly Germanic. We spoke a Germanic tongue little different from the Norse. Our cultural influences were Scandinavian. The Norman conquest changed that. A new culture was imposed on us, an alien culture. This new culture was French in temperament and was responsible for the change in Englands cultural axis away from Scandinavia to France and the Mediterranean. The new English identity that began to emerge in the late 13th century was a hybrid, a fusion of Germanic and Latin cultures. England, like most of Europe was exposed to common political, cultural, and social influences. Amongst these were the Renaissance, the Enlightenement, and democracy. The England that exists today is not Germanic or Latin it is Western-European.

    The same is true for most nations in Europe. Sure some have stronger cultural influences from specific areas. England, for example, is still largely Anglo-Saxon in population makeup, little changed since the Dano-Norse settlements, and world view. The Anglo-Saxons were ever an insular people and most English still are. But we have "evolved" beyond our original cultural labels. It is far to simplistic to label a country as just Germanic or Celtic. If you did then certainly England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and France, would present very severs anomolies.
    Wita sceal ge■yldig, ne sceal no to hatheort ne to hrŠdwyrde, ne to wac wiga ne to wanhydig, ne to forht ne to fŠgen, ne to feohgifre ne nŠfre gielpes to georn, Šr he geare cunne. Beorn sceal gebidan, ■onne he beot sprice­, o■■Št collenfer­ cunne gearwe hwider hre■ra gehygd hweorfan wille.

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  2. #42
    Senior Member dehook's Avatar
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    I also agree that Germanic is best used as a cultural-linguistic term. Using it as a racial term is just confusing, and doesn't mean much. Someone "Germanic" could be Brunn, Borreby, Nordic, etc...genetically they are more closely related to each other than to mediterraneans for example, but they are too different to be classified under one category. I might use the term "Germanic" in reference to nordics, but not much else.

    The same goes for "Celtic", although I think it is much more suitable to use as a racial term as well. I know the Celts were not just one race or ethnic group, they were a group of tribes that had similar languages, cultures and religions. Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England (not all the Celts migrated, rememeber) all have a significant mediterranean influence. I don't know how much of this influence came from the Celts, but there were bound to be many dark Celts what with the various tribes going back centuries from the iberian peninsula to the Rhineland, etc. Still, and correct me if I'm wrong, the majority phenotype of the Celts was Keltic-Nordic, so it can also be used as an anthropological term.

  3. #43
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    Post AW: Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Is Scotland Germanic?

    In my opinion Scotland is among the Celtic Nations.
    But there are not much differences between Germanic and Celtic people.
    Both have mostly fair hair (i count red to fair) and light eyes.
    They once believed in the same gods only their names were different.
    The same religion makes the same or at least familair culture.

    In these hard days Celtic and Germanic people have to stand to each other
    before it is too late.

    so: Scotland is Germanic

  4. #44
    Account Inactive Huzar's Avatar
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    Post Re: AW: Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by lil_werwolf
    But there are not much differences between Germanic and Celtic people.
    Both have mostly fair hair (i count red to fair) and light eyes.

    so: Scotland is Germanic

    Werwolf.......with all due respect , your words are the demonstration that equivokations are very persistent........

    Fair hair and light eyes ??? There is an incredible number of north italians with such traits. Are they Germanic cause that ?
    There is only one fundamental similarity between celtics and germanics : they're both from northeurope ; but if it's for this, even Slavs are from northeurope. Why not a Germanic Slavic brotherhood, then ?!?!

  5. #45
    Senior Member Š■eling's Avatar
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    I think it is fair to say that racially Germanic people were essentially Nordic. The same applied for the Celtic peoples of northern Europe i.e Britain, Ireland, and northern France. Although Palaeolithic survivors, Brunn and Borreby, were common in all areas of northern Europe. Celtic culture though was adopted by other races from Spain to Turkey. There is possibly a fair argument that Bavarians, Austrians, were essentially more Celtic than Germanic to begin with. They adopted Germanic culture as the Germanic tribes began to move southwards towards the end of the 1st millennium BC. Dinarics and Alpines are the most common racial categories in both of these areas and they were also the heartland of the Celtic Hallstatt culture.

    Coon certainly equated a racial type, the Kelto-Nord, with Celtic culture. The Kelto-Nord, being one of the two main divisions of Nordic, was partly Alpine. The Kelto-Nord is the most common Nordic type in Britain. Of course it is wrong to say that all Celts were Kelto-Nords and all Germanics are Hallstatt Nordic. This would be far from the truth. It is also wrong to say that blonde hair, blue eyes were essential Germanic traits. It is perhaps a reasonable assumption that 80% of Scandinavians at the time of the Vikings were various forms of blonde. I arrive at this from figures which suggest that 50% of Scandinavians today are blonde. This figure would seem to naturally have decreased due to immigration from continental Europe. From Britain though to the north German plain brown hair in various shades would seem to dominate. Black hair is restricted, largely, to the Atlantic fringes and the Alpine regions. In Scandinavia it is normally a sure sign of immigration. Racially it would seem, in northern Europe, at least there are little racial differences between Germanic and Celtic peoples. My facts may be off, but that is how it seems to me.
    Wita sceal ge■yldig, ne sceal no to hatheort ne to hrŠdwyrde, ne to wac wiga ne to wanhydig, ne to forht ne to fŠgen, ne to feohgifre ne nŠfre gielpes to georn, Šr he geare cunne. Beorn sceal gebidan, ■onne he beot sprice­, o■■Št collenfer­ cunne gearwe hwider hre■ra gehygd hweorfan wille.

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    http://www.steadfasttrust.org.uk/

  6. #46
    Senior Member Wayfarer's Avatar
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by KULL
    Scotland language is english only cause England domain. The same in Ireland.
    I dont think you understand the development of Scots.
    Scots, or Inglis as it was known back then, was spoken in Scotland before england even existed. You cant compare it to the situation in Ireland. Simply because Scots developed seperately from English to the point were true Scots is largely unintelligible to English ears. Ireland is different,that was a direct result of English imperialism. The Irish speak english with an irish accent. Scotland has its on Germanic language with its roots in old Northumbrian.
    Its not Scottish English, or even standard English thats scotlands language, its Scots. Each of them is different.

    It seems like in my opinion that too many people are quick to form an opinion on tis matter when they clearly do not know much about it. The last thing you should do is have an opinion on a matter you know very little or nothing about.
    Instead firstly we should admit to ourselfs that we do know little about a subject. Then gather as much on the subject as you can, thereby gaining as much knowledge as you can until you feel that you know enough to form an opinion.

    I see Scotland referred to as Celtic quite alot. I want to know what is it that makes people seem to think Scotland is celtic. Did William Wallace wear a kilt? Of course if youve seen Braveheart you would probably say yes.
    What makes Scotland Celtic? The Gaels? Are Scots Gaels? Im not. And ill tell you right now you would get us Lallan fowk in stitches with laughter of you were to go to the Lowlands and call the Scots there Gaels.
    Because we are not. Never have been, never will be, never want to be.

    For hundreds of years we were known derogatively as Teutons. Yes Teutons. I would only say its since the World Wars that Scotland as come together as a nation were we all see ourselves as Scots, whether Gaels, Doric, Scots from the central Belt or the Southern Uplands.
    It was only a few weeks ago at work i saw and i must admit participated in a bit of piss taking at work. Theres a guy there, a really Highland sounding name, his first names Angus, started with his Celtic shite at work, the stick he got was unbelievable. The usual stuff like wheres your trousers, bagpipes, biscuit tin and all that.
    Do you really think the majority of folk from Scotland relate to that? Maybe if your from the highlands or descended from Gaels. I.e Celtic Scotland. Not Lowland Scots.
    Ive witnessed another argument between a Gael and a proud Lallander where the Gael (or rather pretend Gael) was claiming only Gaels are real Scots and we should be speaking Gaelic not english and not Scots. Or as he put Inglis. To him Scots was Gaelic. The Lallander says somethjing to the words of that now Scots is Germanic language and all Scots are Scots not just the Gaels, as the teuchter persisted and called the Teton English, he said fine so what im English doesnt bother me. Of course he never seriously meant that , but what it did show is that the Gaelic/Germanic divide in Scotland, although nothing like it was before, is still there and most Scots do see a difference between Highland Gaelic culture and their own. Even if they dont put to much thought into it.
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
    Gyff fredome failyhe, for fre liking
    Is yharnyt our all other thing.
    Na he that ay has levyt fre
    May nocht knaw weill the propyrte
    The angyr na the wrechyt dome
    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
    Bot gyff he had assayit it.
    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


    Scots is our mother tongue; and if we do not preserve it,
    nobody will preserve it for us.

  7. #47
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer
    I dont think you understand the development of Scots.
    Whether he knows much about it or not, he is essentially correct. Certainly the situation differed from what it was in Ireland (it happened much later there), but the kingdom of Scotland did become Inglis-speaking because of English domination. It stands to reason though, that they would learn the variety already spoken in their realm.
    Last edited by Rhydderch; Monday, October 31st, 2005 at 12:31 PM.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Wayfarer's Avatar
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    Whether he knows much about it or not, he is essentially correct. Certainly the situation differed from what it was in Ireland (it happened much later there), but the kingdom of Scotland did become Inglis-speaking because of English domination. It stands to reason though, that they would learn the variety already spoken in their realm.
    So he is correct because the situation in ireland is different even though he said it was the same?
    ok then think what you like. Im sure it pains you to know that Scotland is more Germanic and less Gaelic than you thought it was.
    Youve been doing nothing but nickpicking and contradicting yourself throughout this thread and to be honest i dont really care what you think anymore. Your blatant anti germanic agenda is pretty obvious.
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
    Gyff fredome failyhe, for fre liking
    Is yharnyt our all other thing.
    Na he that ay has levyt fre
    May nocht knaw weill the propyrte
    The angyr na the wrechyt dome
    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
    Bot gyff he had assayit it.
    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


    Scots is our mother tongue; and if we do not preserve it,
    nobody will preserve it for us.

  9. #49
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer
    So he is correct because the situation in ireland is different even though he said it was the same?
    He is correct in saying that Scotland became Germanic-speaking because of influence from its more powerful neighbour. Ireland became English-speaking for the same reason, but the circumstances were different

    ok then think what you like. Im sure it pains you to know that Scotland is more Germanic and less Gaelic than you thought it was.
    I haven't changed my view, if that's what you're implying. I believe that in terms of ancestry, the vast majority of Scots would be descended from the peoples who inhabited the land when the Romans invaded, i.e. Picts in the Highlands and mainly Britons in the Lowlands. If I have an anti-Germanic agenda then it follows that I must also have an anti-Gaelic agenda

    Youve been doing nothing but nickpicking and contradicting yourself throughout this thread and to be honest i dont really care what you think anymore. Your blatant anti germanic agenda is pretty obvious.
    ok then think what you like

  10. #50
    Account Inactive Huzar's Avatar
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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer
    . Your blatant anti germanic agenda is pretty obvious.

    Rhydderch isn't anti-Germanic from what i know. [Edit: ad hominen removed.]
    Last edited by Siegmund; Thursday, November 3rd, 2005 at 01:23 AM. Reason: Rule 3.

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