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Thread: The Forgotten Legacy of Germanic Scotland

  1. #11
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    Post Re: Question :

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    Scotland became English-speaking mainly because of the dominance of the Kingdom of England (particularly after the Norman Conquest), although it was the Northumbrian dialect which was adopted; this had already established itself in the former Northumbrian south-east Lowlands, around the capital Edinburgh.
    I never suggested it was due to Normans invading Scotland. I'm referring to the fact that England seems to have become more powerful after the Norman Conquest, and as a result tended more and more to dominate Scotland.
    Yet Scots or Inglis was spoken in Scotland before England even existed as a state. It kept its distinctive character and changed little well after the Normans invaded. The only noticable English influence only came about after the act of Union, like i said earlier over 600 years after the Norman invasions. Therefore England and the Normans had little influence on the development of the Scots language, and therefore its spread in Scotland.
    How do you know that? I think you're making a deduction, just as I am; it remains to be seen whose deduction is correct.
    Gododdin, in the south-east Lowlands, was conquered by Northumbria around the 600's, and it is my opinion that Northumbrian spread through that region because it became politically dominant at this time, becoming the language of administration. But it must have taken many centuries before it became the native language.
    I think my deduction is more logical. What reason would the illiterate common folk of the Cymri have in speaking Norhtumbrian? If the Northumbrian became a dominant political class then how would knowledge of their dialect and all its peculiarities spread amongst the Brythons? I mean there wasnt exactly any schools for the upper class Northumbrians to teach Inglis to the masses were there?
    Wasnt there a time when Latin was the administrative language of much of Europe? Did that mean Europeans started to speak Latin? Except for the middle classes the common folk retained their own languages.
    So the most reasonable deduction to make for the Gododdin changing from a Cymric speaking region to a Inglis one is through spread of native Inglis speakers and intermixing between the two.
    I'd say Scotland (with a Gaelic name and establishment)
    The kingdom was established by Gaels, and the royalty was for a long time of Gaelic descent. They gave Scotland its name.
    Like i said i already know that the Gaels gave Scotland its name, however what do you mean Scotland has a Gaelic establishment? When you said Scotland with a gaelic name and establishment you said it in the present tense. I would still like to know what you mean by this.
    France was established by, and named after, the Germanic Franks.
    It has already been explained in this thread that France is a very complex country with the Germanic element only comprising one part of the country. France is as much Germanic as Scotland is Gaelic. France got its name from a Germanic tribe and Scotland from a Gaelic tribe. The main languages of both countries are not the language of the founding peoples (France speaks a Romanic language and not a Germanic one and Scotland speaks a Germanic language and not Gaelic.
    So France may be named after the Germanic Franks but that doesnt mean all French people are Germanic, likewise Scotland being named after a Gaelic tribe the Scotti doesnt mean all Scots are Gaels.
    The origin of a peoples name is not an indicator of that peoples ethnicity. Ill give an example, the Prussians named after a Baltic people, does that mean they're not Germans but Balts? Sudeten Deutch, the Sudete comes from a Greek word, does that make them Greeks?
    I don't agree that Scots 'evidently' have a high amount of Germanic blood. In general they are easily distinguishable from Germanics. Blond hair, if that's what you're referring to, does not equal Germanic; the Bronze age invaders were brown and blond in hair colour, and their descendants are common in Eastern Scotland.
    I never mentioned blonde hair. Im not an anthropologist so im not going to talk about phenotypes and anthropological types and so on, but to say Scots are easily distinguishable from Germanics is silly in my opinion. Because firstly "Germanics" is not a genetic term but an ethno-linguistic one. Germanics differ throughout the Germanic world. Secondly i dont believe for a minute you can spot out of a crowd a Scot or someone from Northern England. Thridly like i said earlier Scotland is a Celto-Germanic country that has also had various waves of human migration even prior to the arrival of the Celts so the make up of Scotland will be very diverse.
    I'd say Scotland (with a Gaelic name and establishment) has less Germanic influence overall than France (which is comparable to England in this respect)
    'Comparable' is the word I used; in other words I believe they're about equal in that respect.
    The way it came across seemed to suggest to me that Scotland is as Germanic as England both of which is less Germanic than France. France which has a small Germanic element to it restricted to the North and extreme East of France it appeared like you were doing your best to undermine the Germanic peoples of the farthest west of Europe.
    The subject of England being Germanic-speaking, whereas France is not, is an interesting one, and I think the reason is not due to a difference in the nature of the Germanic invasion and settlement, but to the peculiar position of Latin in Britain. I have an opinion on it, which I might post soon on another thread.
    Interesting id like to hear it. I always thought Latin was the main reason France became Romanic speaking and the absence of a great Latin influence in the British isles is why Britain is still a Germanic speaking place today. The only Romanic influence was from the French speaking Normans which is why Romanic words are found in Standard English.
    Gaelic was the language of administration all over Scotland as a result of imperialism, and that's why it spread over much of the Lowlands and North-East Scotland.
    The people of Strathclyde were adopting Gaelic when "Inglis" became politically dominant. However, Gaelic may have continued to replace Brythonic even after this; at any rate it survived in parts of Ayrshire and Galloway until at least the 17th century.
    But the fact that Inglis spread through Scotland is due to its position as the administrative (or official) language of the country.
    Gaelic was the administrative language of the parts of Scotland under their control not all over Scotland since when the South East of Scotland became part of the Kingdom the administration of the Kingdom moved to Edinburgh and the administrative language thereon was Scots. Therefor Gaelic was never the administrative language there.
    I get the impression you seem to think that every time some people invade a part of Scotland the people just stop speaking their native tongue and adopt the language of the invader. They must have really good linguistic skills since there were no schools to teach them the invaders language and since you think settlement by the invaders was either minimal or not at all then the only way they could learn the new language is to listen intentively to the invaders until they could get a grasp of the language, but not only that, so good were their skills that they also adopted the same dialect and peculiarities of the invaders language so well that they were indistinguishable from them. At least linguistically. Of course some where down the line you need to be realistic and try and see it as if you were there at the time. Its not as simple as oh the Angles invaded but did not settle however because of the Anglic invasion the local people adopted their language. It might sound good written down but in reality not very practical.
    The "Gaelic" spoken in Galloway is actually Manx and is different to the Gaelic spoken by the Scotti. Ayrshire is a coastal region looking over to Ireland so there had always been even before the Scots invaded Strathclyde, Gaelic speakers in Ayrshire. Apart from that and the Gaels who moved into Strathclyde following its invasion, Gaelic language was minimal in Strathclyde. Just because there were some speakers of Gaelic in Strathclyde doesnt mean they all were and isnt proof that Brythonic was being replaced by Gaelic.
    I know what Scotsmen look like, and I wouldn't argue that they are very dissimilar to the English. But as I've said on many threads, I don't think the English have much Germanic blood either.
    isnt this a contradiction to what you said earlier that the English were comparable to the "Germanic" French?
    Geography can have a considerable effect on culture; mountains often isolate people from cultural innovations and civilising effects.
    I dont think you understood what i was trying to say. The geography is not what distinguishes the different people in Scotland so it is not a reason for the divisions in Scotland. Like i said Picts lived mostly in the Highlands of Scotland AS WELL as the Lowlands of North East Scotland and there were ALSO Pictish communities in South West Scotland.
    Brythons didnt only live in the Lowlands of Central Scotland but also in the Highlands too as well as the Southern Uplands.
    Gaels were not exclusive to the Highlands either but that was were they were strongest simply because it was were they were the longest and they dominated the region unlike elsewhere in Scotland. Not because of its isolation.
    Its not the geography thats responsible for the different cultures, this is were you are wrong.
    Most of the Highlands isnt as isolated as its made out to be. In fact the "mountains" arent even that big at all. its mostly hilly because of glacial scars from the last ice age.
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
    Gyff fredome failyhe, for fre liking
    Is yharnyt our all other thing.
    Na he that ay has levyt fre
    May nocht knaw weill the propyrte
    The angyr na the wrechyt dome
    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
    Bot gyff he had assayit it.
    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


    Scots is our mother tongue; and if we do not preserve it,
    nobody will preserve it for us.

  2. #12
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    Post Re: Question :

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer
    Yet Scots or Inglis was spoken in Scotland before England even existed as a state. It kept its distinctive character and changed little well after the Normans invaded.
    I never suggested otherwise.

    The only noticable English influence only came about after the act of Union, like i said earlier over 600 years after the Norman invasions. Therefore England and the Normans had little influence on the development of the Scots language, and therefore its spread in Scotland.
    I think there is a Norman French influence on the Scots language actually. However I was only referring to England being stronger after the Norman Conquest, and therefore perhaps more inclined to dominate Scotland.

    I think my deduction is more logical. What reason would the illiterate common folk of the Cymri have in speaking Norhtumbrian? If the Northumbrian became a dominant political class then how would knowledge of their dialect and all its peculiarities spread amongst the Brythons? I mean there wasnt exactly any schools for the upper class Northumbrians to teach Inglis to the masses were there?
    I would say the Gododdin nobility, after they were conquered by Northumbria, would have found it convenient to learn English (as a second language) because it was the language of their conquerors' royal court and administration. As time went on, its use would have increased, until their native tongue dropped out of use. It's a slow process though, and must have taken many generations. Now once the nobility were English-speaking, it would have slowly spread through the lower classes, which almost invariably happens in such situations.

    I think it's quite likely (and I'll stress it's only a deduction) that Brythonic was still widespread among the peasantry of Lothian at the time Inglis became the language of the Scottish court. If so, they could well have been mostly bi-lingual.

    Wasnt there a time when Latin was the administrative language of much of Europe? Did that mean Europeans started to speak Latin? Except for the middle classes the common folk retained their own languages.
    I can give the example of Roman Gaul. Here, Latin became the language of administration, and the native Gaulish nobility eventually became native speakers of it, then it spread through the lower classes, although the process was apparently not complete until after Roman rule had ceased. It was not due to an influx of Roman settlers.

    Like i said i already know that the Gaels gave Scotland its name, however what do you mean Scotland has a Gaelic establishment? When you said Scotland with a gaelic name and establishment you said it in the present tense. I would still like to know what you mean by this.
    I probably should have used the past tense. I was using the present tense in the same way that someone might say Scotland 'has' a Gaelic past. I just mean it was established by Gaels.

    So France may be named after the Germanic Franks but that doesnt mean all French people are Germanic, likewise Scotland being named after a Gaelic tribe the Scotti doesnt mean all Scots are Gaels.
    The origin of a peoples name is not an indicator of that peoples ethnicity. Ill give an example, the Prussians named after a Baltic people, does that mean they're not Germans but Balts? Sudeten Deutch, the Sudete comes from a Greek word, does that make them Greeks?
    In my opinion neither the French, Scots or English are really Germanic. What I'm saying is that the early Germanic peoples had a strong influence on the formation of England and France, but less influence on the formation of Scotland.

    I never mentioned blonde hair. Im not an anthropologist so im not going to talk about phenotypes and anthropological types and so on, but to say Scots are easily distinguishable from Germanics is silly in my opinion.
    When you said eastern Scots evidently have a high amount of Germanic blood I assumed you were talking about phenotype.

    Because firstly "Germanics" is not a genetic term but an ethno-linguistic one. Germanics differ throughout the Germanic world. Secondly i dont believe for a minute you can spot out of a crowd a Scot or someone from Northern England. Thridly like i said earlier Scotland is a Celto-Germanic country that has also had various waves of human migration even prior to the arrival of the Celts so the make up of Scotland will be very diverse.
    There is variation everywhere, however I find that as a rule, Scots are quite distinguishable from people like Dutch and Germans. That's not to say look-alikes aren't found between the two regions.

    But Scots would usually be difficult to distinguish from people of Northern England.

    Interesting id like to hear it. I always thought Latin was the main reason France became Romanic speaking and the absence of a great Latin influence in the British isles is why Britain is still a Germanic speaking place today. The only Romanic influence was from the French speaking Normans which is why Romanic words are found in Standard English.
    French is basically derived from the Latin which the Gauls adopted; it also has a strong influence from the Germanic spoken by the Franks.

    Gaelic was the administrative language of the parts of Scotland under their control not all over Scotland since when the South East of Scotland became part of the Kingdom the administration of the Kingdom moved to Edinburgh and the administrative language thereon was Scots. Therefor Gaelic was never the administrative language there.
    Gaelic was the administrative language over the whole of Scotland for a time (apparently not long enough to establish itself as the native tongue of the south-east though). The royal court continued to be Gaelic-speaking until at least the time of Malcolm III; he married an English princess, and their son grew up in England; this young man returned to take the throne, bringing with him many Anglo-Norman nobles, who settled in the kingdom. Inglis gradually took hold and became the language of the court, and these things probably had something to do with it too. But as I said earlier, it was the Northumbrian variety of English which was taken up, presumably because it was already spoken in part of the kingdom.

    I get the impression you seem to think that every time some people invade a part of Scotland the people just stop speaking their native tongue and adopt the language of the invader. They must have really good linguistic skills since there were no schools to teach them the invaders language and since you think settlement by the invaders was either minimal or not at all then the only way they could learn the new language is to listen intentively to the invaders until they could get a grasp of the language, but not only that, so good were their skills that they also adopted the same dialect and peculiarities of the invaders language so well that they were indistinguishable from them. At least linguistically. Of course some where down the line you need to be realistic and try and see it as if you were there at the time. Its not as simple as oh the Angles invaded but did not settle however because of the Anglic invasion the local people adopted their language. It might sound good written down but in reality not very practical.
    Languages spread without formal education, and it doesn't exactly happen in the blink of an eye.
    I doubt that many 16th century Cornishmen learnt English at school, but over the next two or three centuries their language was supplanted by English.

    The "Gaelic" spoken in Galloway is actually Manx and is different to the Gaelic spoken by the Scotti. Ayrshire is a coastal region looking over to Ireland so there had always been even before the Scots invaded Strathclyde, Gaelic speakers in Ayrshire. Apart from that and the Gaels who moved into Strathclyde following its invasion, Gaelic language was minimal in Strathclyde. Just because there were some speakers of Gaelic in Strathclyde doesnt mean they all were and isnt proof that Brythonic was being replaced by Gaelic.
    Ayshire was part of Brythonic Strathclyde, but it was largely Gaelic-speaking by the end of the Middle ages. It's possible that it never entirely replaced Brythonic, but there can be little doubt that most natives adopted Gaelic.

    I dont think you understood what i was trying to say. The geography is not what distinguishes the different people in Scotland so it is not a reason for the divisions in Scotland. Like i said Picts lived mostly in the Highlands of Scotland AS WELL as the Lowlands of North East Scotland and there were ALSO Pictish communities in South West Scotland.
    Brythons didnt only live in the Lowlands of Central Scotland but also in the Highlands too as well as the Southern Uplands.
    Gaels were not exclusive to the Highlands either but that was were they were strongest simply because it was were they were the longest and they dominated the region unlike elsewhere in Scotland. Not because of its isolation.
    Its not the geography thats responsible for the different cultures, this is were you are wrong.
    Most of the Highlands isnt as isolated as its made out to be. In fact the "mountains" arent even that big at all. its mostly hilly because of glacial scars from the last ice age.
    The Highlanders have historically been known to Lowlanders as uncivilised men. Geography is not what determines culture, but it has an effect on it, by allowing or disallowing cultural contact and civilising influences.

    The Scottish Highlands are enough of a barrier to have a considerable influence in this way.

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    Post Re: Question :

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer
    The "Gaelic" spoken in Galloway is actually Manx and is different to the Gaelic spoken by the Scotti.
    I'm not sure that there is any solid evidence for Galloway Gaelic being a form of Manx. I don't remember that any documents in the language have survived, or were even written, so knowledge of it probably comes only from names, in which case it would be difficult to be sure of its affiliations.

    It's much more likely to have spread in Galloway through the dominance of the Scottish crown.

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    Post Re: Question :

    I think Scotland has quite a big number of divisions.

    First you have the largely English south-east. They are descended mostly from Germanic settlers and are the birthplace of Scots English.

    The south-west is British in origin. The old kingdoms of Rheged and Strathclyde were dominant and Welsh was spoken until the 11th century.

    The Highlands are largely Gaelic in origins, particularly the clans. Although most Gaels possibly have Pictish blood.

    The Orkneys and the northern coastel plains are probably more in common with Norway in terms of origins. The Shetlands are practicaly Norwegian.

    I would say Scotland is the most diverse of the British island nations.
    Wita sceal ge■yldig, ne sceal no to hatheort ne to hrŠdwyrde, ne to wac wiga ne to wanhydig, ne to forht ne to fŠgen, ne to feohgifre ne nŠfre gielpes to georn, Šr he geare cunne. Beorn sceal gebidan, ■onne he beot sprice­, o■■Št collenfer­ cunne gearwe hwider hre■ra gehygd hweorfan wille.

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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    I propose we reverse the ridiculous verdict given at the Convention of Druim Ceatt and return Alba to it's proper heritage

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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    I'd also say an admixture of Gaels and Germanics. Of course Gaels came a long long time ago, but don't forget that the Wikings also came from the North!

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    Post Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian
    I propose we reverse the ridiculous verdict given at the Convention of Druim Ceatt and return Alba to it's proper heritage
    Always the same with the damn Irish. Separatism
    I like Scotland the way it is, i'd hate to see it broken up.

    Oh, also Alba wasnt established until the 9th Century while the convention of Druim Ceatt was in 575.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
    Gyff fredome failyhe, for fre liking
    Is yharnyt our all other thing.
    Na he that ay has levyt fre
    May nocht knaw weill the propyrte
    The angyr na the wrechyt dome
    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
    Bot gyff he had assayit it.
    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


    Scots is our mother tongue; and if we do not preserve it,
    nobody will preserve it for us.

  8. #18
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    Post Re: Question :

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    I'm not sure that there is any solid evidence for Galloway Gaelic being a form of Manx. I don't remember that any documents in the language have survived, or were even written, so knowledge of it probably comes only from names, in which case it would be difficult to be sure of its affiliations.

    It's much more likely to have spread in Galloway through the dominance of the Scottish crown.
    Your obviously not sure about alot of things.

    The form of Gaelic spoken in Galloway was Gaelg and not Scottish Gaelic. It came up from the South and not down from the North
    Last edited by Wayfarer; Wednesday, October 26th, 2005 at 01:19 AM.
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
    Gyff fredome failyhe, for fre liking
    Is yharnyt our all other thing.
    Na he that ay has levyt fre
    May nocht knaw weill the propyrte
    The angyr na the wrechyt dome
    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
    Bot gyff he had assayit it.
    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


    Scots is our mother tongue; and if we do not preserve it,
    nobody will preserve it for us.

  9. #19
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    Post Re: Question :

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer
    Your obviously not sure about alot of things.
    Better than being "sure" about something which might be false

    The form of Gaelic spoken in Galloway was Gaelg and not Scottish Gaelic. It came up from the South and not down from the North
    It's no good making assertions, you need evidence. I'm not aware of solid evidence for an influx of Gaelic speakers from the south; if you are then I'd be interested to know.

    The story of the GallGaidhil conquering and giving their name to Galloway is mere speculation, if that's what you have in mind. I think a better hypothesis is the one that it comes from the Brythonic for Caledonia, Calleddon/Callewyddon, which mutated to Callewydd. According to the proponents of the theory, this mutation pattern can be found in other Brythonic place names. Also Galloway was in early times often known as Galwedia or Galweitha.

    The region's inhabitants seem to have been Picts, which would explain why they were called Caledonians.

    There was however, an influx of Vikings from Ireland around the 800's; these men also conquered North-west England and the Isle of Man. Since they came from Ireland, it's likely that their leading men would have had a knowledge of Gaelic, making it easy to communicate with the Scots, who soon became their overlords. It's conceivable then that the Gaelic which was eventually adopted there had a somewhat more freshly Irish aspect to it than that of Dalriada.
    Last edited by Rhydderch; Wednesday, October 26th, 2005 at 06:01 AM.

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    Post Re: Question :

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    Better than being "sure" about something which might be false

    It's no good making assertions, you need evidence. I'm not aware of solid evidence for an influx of Gaelic speakers from the south; if you are then I'd be interested to know.
    The general consensus among historians is that the dialect of Gaelic spoken in Galloway is Gaelg. Just do any google search with Galloway Gaelic or Galloway Gaelg and you will find not one site that says they spoke Dalriadan Gaelic. Like even you claimed earlier in the thread the last speaker died in the 17th century. I would like to know what evidence you have that Dalriadan Gaelic was spoken there since it is you who disagrees with the general view that Gaelg was spoken.
    The story of the GallGaidhil conquering and giving their name to Galloway is mere speculation, if that's what you have in mind. I think a better hypothesis is the one that it comes from the Brythonic for Caledonia, Calleddon/Callewyddon, which mutated to Callewydd. According to the proponents of the theory, this mutation pattern can be found in other Brythonic place names. Also Galloway was in early times often known as Galwedia or Galweitha.

    The region's inhabitants seem to have been Picts, which would explain why they were called Caledonians.
    Gaels, Britons, Picts. I thought you were claiming they were Dalriadan Scots. Which is it now?

    Caledonia is from a Pictish tribe who were from much further to the north.

    There was however, an influx of Vikings from Ireland around the 800's; these men also conquered North-west England and the Isle of Man. Since they came from Ireland, it's likely that their leading men would have had a knowledge of Gaelic, making it easy to communicate with the Scots, who soon became their overlords.
    Gaelg like all Gaelic dialects naturally comes from Ireland originally. Gaelg was spoken originally in Ireland spreading to the Isle of Man and Galloway. The Gaelg dialect exists today only on the Isle of Man. If you have some new evidence that suggests otherwise please let me know and let the academic world know too since surely they must not have seen this evidence either.

    It's conceivable then that the Gaelic which was eventually adopted there had a somewhat more freshly Irish aspect to it than that of Dalriada.
    "more freshly Irish aspect" qo he. WTF does that mean. You do talk alot of pish sometimes.
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
    Gyff fredome failyhe, for fre liking
    Is yharnyt our all other thing.
    Na he that ay has levyt fre
    May nocht knaw weill the propyrte
    The angyr na the wrechyt dome
    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
    Bot gyff he had assayit it.
    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


    Scots is our mother tongue; and if we do not preserve it,
    nobody will preserve it for us.

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