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Thread: The Forgotten Legacy of Germanic Scotland

  1. #101
    Senior Member NewYorker's Avatar
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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bran Fendigaid
    Heh.

    That still doesn't explain why you think Hume vs. Redgrave is supposed to be some profound contrast (they aren't, to any great degree.) The idea that 'Saxons' are somehow racially distinct maybe from Angles, despite their living on the Continent quite close to each other or century upon century? There doesn't seem to be any evidence of major differences between Angle or Saxon (or for that matter; Frisian, Dane, Norman, Jute) except in minor cultural distinctives and dialect.

    I'll let you off the hook on the issue of Scottish religion (especially as you seem unaware of John Knox's career as an English clergyman prior to his invasion of Scotland! ). However, you are still grossly misinterpreting the Declaration of Arbroath - not a 'Norman' document, nor an initialization of Scots identity. Again: Scots identity preceded the Arbroath Declaration, in fact, the Declaration lays out the long precedent of Scottish independence and identity - the 'Declaration' is not for some new idea of independence, but a declaration for that traditional rights and privileges of the Scots vs. the Plantagenets (the Plantagenets having ignored that King Richard the Lionhearted had sold off any claim of an English monarch to Scotland at an earlier date.) That the Normans were never more than a small male contingent in Scotland (and not even ethnically Norman in the main) should give lie to the idea of 'Norman' in Scotland being somehow distinct from English: the same peoples settled in both countries (though the Normans had less impact in Scotland, to be sure). The 'Normans' in Scotland were more likely to be Flemings anyway (which makes them closer to 'Saxon' than Viking.)

    Family History In Your Surname
    Gordon Johnson

    Before Scotland achieved clearly defined national borders - settled by a treaty signed in 1237 when Scotland and England agreed on their jurisdictions, our country existed as a series of tribal areas held together by a king whose authority was needed to keep them all together. Various groupings had their own fiefdoms, and wanted to protect their interests, much like Afghanistan today.

    The Scots were an Irish tribe who emigrated to the shores of Scotland nearest Ireland, what we would call Strathclyde, and easily mingled with the existing Celtic tribes which were established in several areas including the South-west. The Picts, a pre-Celtic indigenous people which gradually vanished, was resident mainly in the northern parts, and the Britons were indigenous to the central and southern areas. Angles were part of the population of a Northumberland which started in England and stretched as far north as Edinburgh. Flemings, nowadays almost forgotten in this context, were a trading nation with colonies in Scotland. Aberdeen was effectively a Fleming town in earlier centuries. The Vikings, mainly Norwegians, had been invading Scotland for so long that many had settled in Orkney and Shetland, Caithness and the Western Isles. These areas belonged to the Norwegian kingdom, though in 1266 by the treaty of Perth the Western Isles were ceded to Scotland. Then there were the Anglo-Normans. These were the relations of the Scottish and English kings who had been invited to move to Scotland to help construct a feudal society under David I (1124-1153). The legacy of this complicated past is still to be seen in our family names, and some of the most famous Scottish surnames are foreign in origin. Robert the Bruce's family was Norman, and can be traced back to Brieux in Orne, France. Other Norman families are Beaton (originally Bethune, from Pas de Calais), Boswell (Bosville), Cumming/Comyn (Comines), Grant (Le Grand) and Rennie (Rene). Sinclair was originally St. Clair, and Fraser was previously De Frisel, still surviving as the Frizzell surname in South-West Scotland. Even a surname like Stewart/Stuart, which comes from the office of High Steward of Scotland, is Norman, for this post was hereditary in the FitzAlan family who eventually adopted the title as their surname. The Fleming surname, common in Scotland, is thus from the Flemish settlers. Ogilvie comes from the Pictish placename in Angus, made over into a surname, and means a high place. Surnames starting with Pit are of Pictish derivation, meaning a part or piece of something, and the ending is descriptive, so Pittendreich is "the place of the aspect".

    Norse surnames are common in Northern Scotland and Orkney, such as Swanson (Sven's son), Gunn (supposed to be from Norse Gunni, but may be of older Pictish origin), and Manson, a shortened version of Magnusson. Flett, found in Orkney, and down the north-eastern seaboard, is from a Norse forename. Kerr or Carr is from the Norse Kjarr, and the Orkney name Lamont is not French but the Old Norse "logmadr", and is the same root for McClymont. Old English features more in border names such as Elliot, and Kennedy is of Celtic origin, along with the many Gaelic surnames, most of them starting with Mac, meaning "son of". There have been entire books written on this subject, but this should be enough to show that even your surname is not as obviously Scottish as you may have thought.
    Last edited by NewYorker; Wednesday, December 28th, 2005 at 08:01 AM.
    "The problem with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." -- Bertrand Russell

  2. #102
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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorker
    Family History In Your Surname
    Gordon Johnson

    Before Scotland achieved clearly defined national borders - settled by a treaty signed in 1237 when Scotland and England agreed on their jurisdictions, our country existed as a series of tribal areas held together by a king whose authority was needed to keep them all together. Various groupings had their own fiefdoms, and wanted to protect their interests, much like Afghanistan today.

    The Scots were an Irish tribe who emigrated to the shores of Scotland nearest Ireland, what we would call Strathclyde, and easily mingled with the existing Celtic tribes which were established in several areas including the South-west. The Picts, a pre-Celtic indigenous people which gradually vanished, was resident mainly in the northern parts, and the Britons were indigenous to the central and southern areas. Angles were part of the population of a Northumberland which started in England and stretched as far north as Edinburgh. Flemings, nowadays almost forgotten in this context, were a trading nation with colonies in Scotland.
    Aberdeen was effectively a Fleming town in earlier centuries. The Vikings, mainly Norwegians, had been invading Scotland for so long that many had settled in Orkney and Shetland, Caithness and the Western Isles. These areas belonged to the Norwegian kingdom, though in 1266 by the treaty of Perth the Western Isles were ceded to Scotland. Then there were the Anglo-Normans. These were the relations of the Scottish and English kings who had been invited to move to Scotland to help construct a feudal society under David I (1124-1153). The legacy of this complicated past is still to be seen in our family names, and some of the most famous Scottish surnames are foreign in origin. Robert the Bruce's family was Norman, and can be traced back to Brieux in Orne, France. Other Norman families are Beaton (originally Bethune, from Pas de Calais), Boswell (Bosville), Cumming/Comyn (Comines), Grant (Le Grand) and Rennie (Rene). Sinclair was originally St. Clair, and Fraser was previously De Frisel, still surviving as the Frizzell surname in South-West Scotland. Even a surname like Stewart/Stuart, which comes from the office of High Steward of Scotland, is Norman, for this post was hereditary in the FitzAlan family who eventually adopted the title as their surname. The Fleming surname, common in Scotland, is thus from the Flemish settlers. Ogilvie comes from the Pictish placename in Angus, made over into a surname, and means a high place. Surnames starting with Pit are of Pictish derivation, meaning a part or piece of something, and the ending is descriptive, so Pittendreich is "the place of the aspect".

    Norse surnames are common in Northern Scotland and Orkney, such as Swanson (Sven's son), Gunn (supposed to be from Norse Gunni, but may be of older Pictish origin), and Manson, a shortened version of Magnusson. Flett, found in Orkney, and down the north-eastern seaboard, is from a Norse forename. Kerr or Carr is from the Norse Kjarr, and the Orkney name Lamont is not French but the Old Norse "logmadr", and is the same root for McClymont. Old English features more in border names such as Elliot, and Kennedy is of Celtic origin, along with the many Gaelic surnames, most of them starting with Mac, meaning "son of". There have been entire books written on this subject, but this should be enough to show that even your surname is not as obviously Scottish as you may have thought.
    Gee, notice how it doesn't make any mention of "Saxons" within Scotland and it even says the most Royal and most famous Scottish surname "Stuart/Stewart" is of Norman origin ? How do you explain that genius ?

    All I see mentioned are : Picts, Scots (Gaels or whatever), Angles, Norwegians , Bretons, Flemings and Normans. There is no mention of "Saxons".
    Last edited by NewYorker; Wednesday, December 28th, 2005 at 08:09 AM.
    "The problem with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." -- Bertrand Russell

  3. #103
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    AW: Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Heil

    I have read very much over the ancient German-hood, 100 ertes of books, therefore I cannot now tell you, from which sources I now take this thesis, but I have itmore than once read. one it assumes, that the Scotsmen, Skyten, Sueben, Sweben, Schwaben (Mitteldeutschland:Hauptstadt Stuttgard, similar the name Steward), is one tribe. bulkheads is Germanic in any case, can you see it?!

    There is another theory. the Scotsmen is a mixture from an old megalithish peoples,( builder of Stonhenge, Matriarchal), and Celts. Maybee the tribe of "sueben" mixed with them.

    I hope to help a little bit.

    Best wishes from the north of Germany

    Karasig
    Last edited by Karasig; Wednesday, December 28th, 2005 at 12:46 PM.

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  4. #104
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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorker
    I can't argue with a person who lives in denial of facts. All I can say is that the world is made up of facts and not of things. I put forth more 'facts' in my propositions and you put forth more 'things' in your propositions.
    A straw man - your facts are incomplete.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    On the contrary, Charles II tried to force Episcopalianism on Scotland. These were the "killing times", when those who would not conform (known in Scotland as Covenanters) were hunted down, tortured and killed; churches had to use the Episcopalian mode of worship, so Covenanters met in the hills.
    Blood was spilled on both sides. The persecution of the Episcopalians was heaviest after 1688 - but had gone both ways. The Presbyterian ascendancy was not a one time event (of the late 17th c.): it occurred a couple of times (and was accompanied by the greatest pro-English sentiment, and rejection of Scotland's long-standing friendship with France, Norway, etc.) The Covenanters (whom I also count as ancestors) were not persecuted during the 17th c. merely for theology, but because they were also lawless and responsible for acts of violence and destruction. (Did not the first sermon of John Knox lead to the sacking of the Scottish church he preached in, the destruction of their ornaments, etc.? )

    And, for the record: I am not now, nor have ever been a member of the Anglican Communion, Roman Church, or Presbyterians.

    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker
    Family History In Your Surname
    Ah - internet genealogy mills as 'evidence'? You should be aware that with most of the clans (whether Highlands or Lowlands) there is an argument over their original ethnic origins. The Stewarts by many accounts are the descendants of a Fleming named Flaald, for instance. By others, they are the descendants of a Gael. If one goes and follows the DNA Surname studies, one will notice that most Scottish clans do not all internally descend from the same ancestor: one may bear surname McGregor, Ferguson, Gordon, etc., and be of different Y-STR haplotype, and thus different ancestry. The Gordons themselves are claimed variously as Norman, Belgo-Gallic, Briton, Gaelic, and Angle.

    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker
    All I see mentioned are : Picts, Scots (Gaels or whatever), Angles, Norwegians , Bretons, Flemings and Normans. There is no mention of "Saxons".
    Your term 'Angles' is most often translated into English as 'English' as regards the Arbroath Declaration. Contemporary records do not show it to have been an easy task (or normative) to distinguish between Angle or Saxon from soon after the 'mythic' settlement'. In Gaelic terminology, all Angles, Normans, even Britons were 'Sassenach' - Saxon. Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Frisians had dwelt on each others borders for centuries: their blood was already mingled, they shared a single heroic culture, a language that was so alike in dialect that it easily merged into 'English' or 'Scots'. Like it or not, the men of Lothian and Bernicia (and even Dumfries/Galloway) have been 'Sassenach'/Angles for most of their history. (Even Whithorn is a Northumbrian 'Sassenach' monastery, the Ruthwell cross bears the Anglo-Saxon 'Dream of the Rood'.) Trying to so heavily separate Saxon and Angle is a lost cause.

    And, a final fact to remember - all those nobles at the top of the Declaration of Arbroath (most of them my ancestors): all of them held lands in England, especially in the South. Their ancestors had as well. How 'un-Saxon' do you think they were? Some of them bear quite 'Saxon names' (as their own clans have it); Graham, Maxwell, etc.

    Bottom line: things aren't so 'black and white' with Scotland as some here are trying to portray.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    There is nothing the matter with Americans except their ideals. The real American is all right; it is the ideal American who is all wrong. ~G.K. Chesterton

  5. #105
    Senior Member Wayfarer's Avatar
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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Im sure many folk are really interested in this theological debate, but isnt it a bit off topic?
    Perhaps starting a new thread or taking it to the christianity section might be a good idea.
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
    Gyff fredome failyhe, for fre liking
    Is yharnyt our all other thing.
    Na he that ay has levyt fre
    May nocht knaw weill the propyrte
    The angyr na the wrechyt dome
    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
    Bot gyff he had assayit it.
    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


    Scots is our mother tongue; and if we do not preserve it,
    nobody will preserve it for us.

  6. #106
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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer
    Im sure many folk are really interested in this theological debate, but isnt it a bit off topic?
    Perhaps starting a new thread or taking it to the christianity section might be a good idea.
    I thought the same thing myself, but hesitated since so much of the discussion is intertwined. But in the end I went ahead and split most of the posts dealing with religion to Church and Kirk. Depending on where you posted, you may need to resubscribe to one of these two threads.

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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    It was intertwined - however, I think the evidence is pretty clear that a Western Germanic categorization for Scotland is not out of line. The Scots tongue is Western Germanic (very close to Frisian). Scandinavian, Germanic, especially North Sea genetics are common. Scotland has always had this 'tension' of being both Celtic and Germanic - to deny one or the other is to deny a great part of Scottish history and culture.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    There is nothing the matter with Americans except their ideals. The real American is all right; it is the ideal American who is all wrong. ~G.K. Chesterton

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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Scotland is Nordic on the west and Germanic on the east, with Nordic coming down the coast of the Northeast as well and Germanics going across to Glasgow too.

    This is generally true and of course there are parts on both sides. the Hanseatic League traded with Edinburgh and the Norweigans sailed all along the west side.





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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Well both of my Scottish surnames have Norse ancestry... Like Macdonald, and Montgomery (Norman).

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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    I would say that both in a racial and a cultural sense, that both are mixed. The same applies to Ireland, by the way, but to a smaller degree, as it is culturally very Celtic. From a racial viewpoint we have to see Scotland as being mostly made of Palaeo-Atlantids and Trønders - does that not prove that both parts are quite prevalent.

    Oh, and not to forget - the Tartan is Germanic, not Celtic, if my information is correct.

    I am quite astonished though how a simple question that can be answered with "Celto-Germanic" is already taking 12 pages though,

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