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Thread: HG9 in Eurasia

  1. #11
    Member Dienekes_Pontikos's Avatar
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    Post Re: HG9 in Eurasia

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir42
    What are your sources?

    My source for Svans is:

    Wells et al., The Eurasian Heartland: A continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity, PNAS 98:18, p10244-9, 2001

    The frequency of M-89 for Svans is 92%. M-89, along with M-172 and M-201, is a sub-clade of haplogroup 9, which is now known as J.


    That is why haplogroup 9/J cannot be an Arab or Semitic marker.
    Svans are a very small population with extremely low genetic diversity, so the elevated frequency of haplogroup J in them could be the result of genetic drift.

    Haplogroup J is divided into two subclades, J2 and J1. Clade J1 is very frequent in Semites such as Arabs and Jews and very low in Indo-European speaking populations.

  2. #12
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    Post Re: HG9 in Eurasia

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir42
    The frequency of M-89 for Svans is 92%. M-89, along with M-172 and M-201, is a sub-clade of haplogroup 9, which is now known as J.
    M-89 defines haplogroup F which is ancestral to haplogroup J. M-172 defines subhaplogroup J2 which is derived from J. M-201 defines haplogroup G which is derived from F although it is believed to have a common ancestor with J.

  3. #13
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    Post Re: HG9 in Eurasia

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes_Pontikos
    M-89 defines haplogroup F which is ancestral to haplogroup J. M-172 defines subhaplogroup J2 which is derived from J. M-201 defines haplogroup G which is derived from F although it is believed to have a common ancestor with J.

    Dienekes, who is the Emperor in your sig picture fourth from the left?

  4. #14
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    Post Re: HG9 in Eurasia

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian
    Dienekes, who is the Emperor in your sig picture fourth from the left?
    http://philippos.mpa.gr/gr/other/1453/leaders.html

  5. #15
    Kamangir42
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    Post Re: HG9 in Eurasia

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes_Pontikos
    Svans are a very small population with extremely low genetic diversity, so the elevated frequency of haplogroup J in them could be the result of genetic drift.
    That's plausible. Still we don't know that is the case.

    Haplogroup J is divided into two subclades, J2 and J1. Clade J1 is very frequent in Semites such as Arabs and Jews and very low in Indo-European speaking populations.
    Hmm. I don't think enough testing has been carried out especially given that the nomenclature appears to be changing every couple of minutes. Though, Shapur really should stop talking about haplogroup 9.

    Semino et al. (2004) is quite useful on J though, unfortunately for me, they don't test Iranians (still, they take the liberty of drawing the frequency distribution in Iran - maybe they're psychic?). M-267 (aka Eu 10) is said to be "Arab" while the others are not (like M-172 aka Eu 9). I think it also suggests that M-267 did not arise in the southern Fertile Crescent which earlier studies by Nebel et al. did. I'm still sceptical that M-267 can be labelled an "Arab" marker and certainly it cannot be used as an indicator of "Arab" admixture (despite its high frequency in the Bedouin).

    By the way, M-172 appears to be more prevalent than M-267 in Ashkhenazim Jews while they are both equally common among Sephardim Jews (Nebel et al. 2001). Your statement above would not be entirely accurate in light of this.

  6. #16
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    Post Re: HG9 in Eurasia

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir42
    Hmm. I don't think enough testing has been carried out especially given that the nomenclature appears to be changing every couple of minutes. Though, Shapur really should stop talking about haplogroup 9.
    Changes in the nomenclature does not alter the identification of the structure of haplogroup J into two main clades.

    Semino et al. (2004) is quite useful on J though, unfortunately for me, they don't test Iranians (still, they take the liberty of drawing the frequency distribution in Iran - maybe they're psychic?). M-267 (aka Eu 10) is said to be "Arab" while the others are not (like M-172 aka Eu 9).
    J1 is not Arab, it had two expansions, one of which is recent and associated with Arabs and one which is ancient. While J1 is not Arab, Arabs and other Semites have high frequencies of it, making it likely that it would appear in populations which have absorbed Semitic populations such as Assyrians, Jews, Arabs etc.

    By the way, M-172 appears to be more prevalent than M-267 in Ashkhenazim Jews while they are both equally common among Sephardim Jews (Nebel et al. 2001). Your statement above would not be entirely accurate in light of this.
    My statement "Clade J1 is very frequent in Semites such as Arabs and Jews and very low in Indo-European speaking populations." is accurate. The high frequency of J1 does not necessarily imply that the corresponding frequency of J2 is low.

  7. #17
    Kamangir42
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    Post Re: HG9 in Eurasia

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes_Pontikos
    Changes in the nomenclature does not alter the identification of the structure of haplogroup J into two main clades.
    Yeah but it does make it more confusing. It makes comparisons much more difficult. I don't know why they can't just test for the clades, lay it all out in a table and then start talking about Eu this or Hg that. To be fair, they have started to do this in more recent articles. I like to see the working and all the results! Sometimes they fail to test for crucial clades which means useful comparisons cannot be made.

    J1 is not Arab, it had two expansions, one of which is recent and associated with Arabs and one which is ancient. While J1 is not Arab, Arabs and other Semites have high frequencies of it, making it likely that it would appear in populations which have absorbed Semitic populations such as Assyrians, Jews, Arabs etc.
    "Real" Arabs (i.e. Bedouin) do indeed have high frequencies of M-267. But I don't think Jews have high frequencies of M-267 personally. It's very subjective that word "high" so it's just my opinion. I'm not aware of any genetic testing on Assyrians. "Phoenician" Semites in Lebanon do not have a high frequency of M-267. So let's not extend results for Bedouin to (a) Arabs at large and (b) Semites at large.

    Where do you think J arose? How about F and G? I know Quintana-Murci thinks that haplgroup 9 arose in Iran.

    My statement "Clade J1 is very frequent in Semites such as Arabs and Jews and very low in Indo-European speaking populations." is accurate. The high frequency of J1 does not necessarily imply that the corresponding frequency of J2 is low.
    Yes it was accurate but it was potentially misleading. It would have been better for you to say that Bedouin have a high frequency of M-267 while Indo-European populations have a very low frequency. It tends to give the impression that Semites are genetically homogeneous while this is not the case.

    Anyway, I don't think you did it on purpose but you know how people are around here. Thanks for your efforts on your blog. It's a very interesting cache of knowledge.

    I'd also like to ask you about the Elamites. I am under the impression that Elamite is an isolated language. While a linguisticist in the 1970s, McAlpin, hypothesised a supposed Elamo-Dravidian language family, I gather that most linguists do not accept this (especially Dravidologists like Krishnamurti). What are your views on this and do you have any references that would be relevant?

  8. #18
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    Post Re: HG9 in Eurasia

    If you look at, say, the populations that have more than 25% of haplogroup J1 then all of them are Semitic speaking. And in the populations with less than 5%, there are no Semitic-speaking groups. So, J1 seems to be a basic element in Semitic speaking groups. By contrast, J1 is generally lacking or has low frequencies (<5%) in most IE-speaking groups, with a few exceptions (Kurds ~10%, Sicilians ~7%), and it also has low frequency in Caucasian-speaking groups. So, even though in itself J1 is not a "Semitic" marker, its significant presence is suggestive of absorption of Semitic speakers.

    http://img16.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img16&image=tb3.gif

    PS: I have no info on Elamite. I know that according to some it's related to Dravidian.

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    Post Re: HG9 in Eurasia

    Today `` HG9 `` is not a valid denomination.

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=16327

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