Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 16 of 16

Thread: On Britishness

  1. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Last Online
    Friday, October 7th, 2016 @ 02:13 AM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Country
    Other Other
    State
    Cape Province Cape Province
    Gender
    Family
    Youth
    Religion
    none
    Posts
    972
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    I don't think it is that one marker is equivalent to one ethnicity or tribe so much as generalized trends. Again, I only have basic knowledge on genetics, but its my understanding that R1b L21 for example corresponds mostly to the British Celts, but that in turn doesn't exclude the possibility of Norseman or Anglo-Saxons also carrying the marker, albeit in smaller numbers.
    And it is a lot less interesting than talking about some almost equally absurd marker which we can all see at a glance, toe proportions.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Coillearnach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Last Online
    1 Hour Ago @ 09:40 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    Anglo-Celtic
    Country
    Confederate States Confederate States
    Gender
    Age
    30
    Family
    Married
    Politics
    Nativism/Nationalism
    Religion
    Summum bonum
    Posts
    238
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    95
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    95
    Thanked in
    55 Posts
    Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon genomes from East England reveal British migration history

    British population history has been shaped by a series of immigrations and internal movements, including the early Anglo-Saxon migrations following the breakdown of the Roman administration after 410CE. It remains an open question how these events affected the genetic composition of the current British population. Here, we present whole-genome sequences generated from ten ancient individuals found in archaeological excavations close to Cambridge in the East of England, ranging from 2,300 until 1,200 years before present (Iron Age to Anglo-Saxon period). We use present-day genetic data to characterize the relationship of these ancient individuals to contemporary British and other European populations. By analyzing the distribution of shared rare variants across ancient and modern individuals, we find that today’s British are more similar to the Iron Age individuals than to most of the Anglo-Saxon individuals, and estimate that the contemporary East English population derives 30% of its ancestry from Anglo-Saxon migrations, with a lower fraction in Wales and Scotland. We gain further insight with a new method, rarecoal, which fits a demographic model to the distribution of shared rare variants across a large number of samples, enabling fine scale analysis of subtle genetic differences and yielding explicit estimates of population sizes and split times. Using rarecoal we find that the ancestors of the Anglo-Saxon samples are closest to modern Danish and Dutch populations, while the Iron Age samples share ancestors with multiple Northern European populations including Britain.

    Link
    The fine-scale genetic structure of the British population

    ..The Norwegian contribution stands out clearly in the Orkney samples, as expected, but represents only about a 25% Norse Viking admixture. This shows that the Norse Vikings certainly did not wipe out the resident Pictish population and replace it, but rather intermarried significantly with it. There are also clear Norwegian contributions to all the Scottish and Northern Ireland samples, less to Northern England, even less to Wales and very small contributions elsewhere.

    ..Based on these two contributions, the best estimates for the proportion of presumed Anglo-Saxon ancestry in the large eastern, central and southern England cluster (red squares) are a maximum of 40% and could be as little as 10%.

    ...The homogeneity of the east, central and southern British cluster with no obvious differences in the Danish contribution between them and the more northern English populations, strongly suggests that the Danish Vikings, in spite of their major influence through the “Danelaw’ and many place names of Danish origin, contributed little of their DNA to the English population.

    Link
    Influence of Celtic on English greater than previously thought

    PhD researcher Stephen Laker has shown that Celtic influenced the early development of English. His doctoral defence is on 23 September.

    Steven Laker: 'My research identified clear signs of Celtic influence on English sounds time and again.'

    New linguistic research at Leiden University reveals that Celtic had a significant influence on the early development of the English language. Anglo-Saxons from northern Germany set sail for Britain around 450 AD. According to traditional accounts, they carried out a process of ethnic cleansing. Before long they had all but wiped out or driven out the resident Romano-British population, whose Celtic language had no influence on the early development of English

    Recent research dismisses this traditional view as too simplistic. Archaeologists have found no evidence in the form of war graves or settlement dislocation to back up such a clean-sweep scenario.

    Stephen Laker of the Leiden University Centre for Linguistics investigated the English language to see what it could reveal about early contacts between Anglo-Saxons and Britons. His doctoral research unearthed a number of surprising results. Laker set out to compare in detail all that was known about Pre-Old English and British Celtic speech at the time of contact. “By comparing the structure of both Celtic and English at the time of contact you can identify the differences and similarities between the two languages,” said Laker. “Only when you have done this groundwork can you begin to gauge what kind of an influence Celtic might have had on English.”

    'My research focused on the sound systems of Celtic and English when they came into contact. It was a bit like comparing the pronunciation of two modern languages. When you learn a foreign language, certain difficulties in pronunciation arise, because no two languages are alike. That’s why it’s usually easy to identify, say, a Dutch or Japanese accented English. The same quirks of pronunciation, as influenced by the native language, crop up time and again. Similarly, my research identified clear signs of Celtic influence on English sounds time and again.'

    'I couldn’t put the results down to chance, because similar Celtic-like developments are not found in languages that are closely related to English, such as Frisian, Dutch and German. The only logical explanation is that large numbers of Britons stopped speaking Celtic and started speaking English after the Anglo-Saxon takeover of Britain.'

    Although Laker’s investigation did reveal that Celtic influence on English was stronger than expected, such influence was not found in all regions of Britain. Very little influence was identified in dialects of southern England, namely in those varieties that were most influential to the formation of southern standard English pronunciations. By far most Celtic influence was identified in traditional northern English dialects.


    The linguistic evidence suggests that the contact situation differed according to region – this is a view that has also been put forward by archaeologists and geneticists on other grounds. Rather than Britons being wiped out or driven out of present-day England by Anglo-Saxons, the research indicates that large numbers of Britons simply learned English and blended in. Owing to their sheer numbers, such Britons had a lasting influence on the historical development of English.

    Link

    Overall, I do believe that the genetic picture mirrors the identity situation with all British peoples being more similar to each other than to continentals. That has been my personal experience as someone of mostly British ancestry (majority English), my husband's Australian family (many of whom have spouses from the UK and have lived there with pretty smooth adaptation as well as in Germany/Switzerland with different results), trips to continental Europe, and living in Australia myself. My transition here was fairly seamless whereas I was up to my eyeballs in culture shock in Germany and Austria (yes, Americanization as well as a common colonial past bridges some of the gap but it's not the lion's share.)

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Online
    Friday, June 22nd, 2018 @ 09:47 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    Lowland Scots, Pennsylvania German
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Washington Washington
    Location
    Pugetopolis
    Gender
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Pixels
    Politics
    Public Lands Libertarian
    Religion
    Gnostic
    Posts
    301
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    28
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    76
    Thanked in
    55 Posts


    This pretty much mirrors my recent study on the matter...

  4. #14
    New Member
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Last Online
    Saturday, May 28th, 2016 @ 08:48 AM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Country
    England England
    Gender
    Politics
    Radical Right
    Posts
    6
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    There are many studies, I agree with this one.

    British history contains several periods of major cultural change. It remains controversial as to how much these periods coincided with substantial immigration from continental Europe, even for those that occurred most recently.

    In this study, we examine genetic data for evidence of male immigration at particular times into Central England and North Wales. To do this, we used 12 biallelic polymorphisms and six microsatellite markers to define high-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes in a sample of 313 males from seven towns located along an east-west transect from East Anglia to North Wales.

    The Central English towns were genetically very similar, whereas the two North Welsh towns differed significantly both from each other and from the Central English towns.

    When we compared our data with an additional 177 samples collected in Friesland and Norway, we found that the Central English and Frisian samples were statistically indistinguishable.

    Using novel population genetic models that incorporate both mass migration and continuous gene flow, we conclude that these striking patterns are best explained by a substantial migration of Anglo-Saxon Y chromosomes into Central England (contributing 50%–100% to the gene pool at that time) but not into North Wales.
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/19/7/1008.long

  5. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Last Online
    Monday, September 3rd, 2018 @ 03:59 AM
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Ancestry
    Netherlands, Belgium
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Utah Utah
    Location
    Mid-West
    Gender
    Family
    Happy
    Occupation
    Teacher
    Politics
    Liberal
    Religion
    Christian
    Posts
    154
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    7
    Thanked in
    6 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonShore View Post
    There are many studies, I agree with this one.



    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/19/7/1008.long
    Yep! I fully agree with that.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Last Online
    Thursday, September 7th, 2017 @ 12:29 AM
    Ethnicity
    Mixed Germanic and Celtic
    Ancestry
    British Isles & Scandinavia
    Subrace
    Borreby x Nordic
    Country
    Other Other
    Location
    Aqua
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    Gondolier
    Posts
    2,199
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    19
    Thanked in
    19 Posts
    The English language drifted from other WG languages because of the Viking Age influence upon the English language including Scots. Culturally 1066 changed the culture but the Normans were a Nordic people of NG stock. A great plague contributed to population discontinuity between the Romano-British and AS periods but the continuity was geographically uneven. Consider at an extreme the area between the Mersey and the Forth, west of the Pennine range, as biologically Celtic despite speaking Germania.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 8
    Last Post: Friday, March 2nd, 2012, 09:06 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •