Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: On Britishness

  1. #1
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Last Online
    Monday, September 2nd, 2019 @ 09:27 PM
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic
    Ancestry
    British-German
    Subrace
    Nordid-Cromagnid
    Country
    Vinland Vinland
    Gender
    Politics
    Throne and Altar
    Religion
    Aryajnana
    Posts
    719
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    On Britishness

    I didn't know where precisely to place this thread and I understand that there are similar threads to what I intend here, but rather than reviving old threads I figured it'd be best to start a new discussion around some related issues on the nature of Germanic and Celtic identity, history, and ethnic reality in the British Isles. This centers around two main questions:

    1.) How Germanic (or if you prefer, how Celtic) are the English, Lowland Scots, and other people of the British Isles? It is known that the English derive from the Anglo-Saxons, but what of the native Brythonic element? How great is its input if any, be it through blood or other areas, in the English population? The traditional view and that based on linguistic evidence seems to say that the Celtic Britons were subject to eradication, being driven out, outproduced, or otherwise removed from the South and East of Britain. However recent scholarship seems to cast doubt on this. Take for example this citation from the introduction to Higham's Britons in Anglo-Saxon England:


    The Anglo-Saxon immigration had, therefore, long been viewed as exceptional by the standards of fifth-century Europe, in terms both of the sheer numbers involved and its inclusion of a mass of peasantry.This picture of mass migration squeezing out the Britons became less credible, however, as new answers began to emerge to the question: How many Britons were there? From the 1960s onwards, aerial photography and archaeological survey revealed hitherto unsuspected numbers of new sites and population estimates for Roman Britain, which centred on a mere million or so in the 1930s, climbed to two to four million for the fourth century, with some estimates significantly higher. Britain was beginning to look very full of people indeed in the later Roman period: indeed, such figures approximate to the sixteenth century, which was a period of marked population pressure. For the Britons to have been overwhelmed numerically by continental immigrants who had ferried themselves across the Channel in small boats was looking ever less plausible.

    Traditional views of Germanic immigration, of course, face comparable difficulties of scale. Bede informs us that three tribes were involved, among which the Angles derived from the area known in his day as Angulus, which can be identified with some confidence as the narrow isthmus of the Danish peninsula, around Schleswig and Flensburg. Thence Bede claimed that the East Angles, Middle Angles, Mercians and Northumbrians, plus other tribes which he failed to name, had migrated. A homeland approximating in scale to East Anglia and beset by numerous wetlands was therefore supposed to have populated two thirds of England, throwing up serious challenges to Bede’s credibility.
    In such a case, is it that the English (and Scots of the South and East) are primarily Germanicized Brythonic Celts with further Germanic (Anglo-Saxon, Norse, Norman, Flemish, etc.) input?

    2.) On a related note and the matter of identity, would you say that the English and Scots are more similar to the Celtic British (Welsh, Gaelic Highlands and Isles, etc.) and Irish or to other Germanics? I've heard it said not a few times that this is the case and that continental Germanics and Scandinavians are more similar to each other than they are with the English or Scots. For those who are British or are of British ancestry, how do you personally see the matter? Do you see yourself more connected to the other Britons culturally and ethnically or continental Germanic peoples, or perhaps both in equal measure?

    In short, please discuss and share your input on any of the ideas and topics presented above.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Online
    Friday, June 22nd, 2018 @ 09:47 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    Lowland Scots, Pennsylvania German
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Washington Washington
    Location
    Pugetopolis
    Gender
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Pixels
    Politics
    Public Lands Libertarian
    Religion
    Gnostic
    Posts
    301
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    28
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    76
    Thanked in
    55 Posts


    I'm at work so I don't have my sources at hand, but I'd say the above is giving too much emphasis on both the Germanic and Celtic influx as far as the population would be considered.

    I used to subscribe to the Celtic Eradication/Anglo Saxon Replacement theories, but in the last few years my reading on the matter has led me to believe that the pre modern age population of Great Briton proper is pretty much the same genetically, as the first immigrants from the receding of the Ice Age.

    Genetically, that is, not culturally, I think it's clear that first the Celtic, and then the Germanic cultures replaced the indigenous ones.

    I would suppose that this happened through the replacement of only the ruling elites with first a Celtic Elite, then a German one.

    As far as Linguistics, I think the now near extinct Scots language (Lallans) was closer to German dialects than Modern or Middle English was.

    Same to a lesser extent to versions of English spoken in the Danelaw areas.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Last Online
    Monday, September 2nd, 2019 @ 09:27 PM
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic
    Ancestry
    British-German
    Subrace
    Nordid-Cromagnid
    Country
    Vinland Vinland
    Gender
    Politics
    Throne and Altar
    Religion
    Aryajnana
    Posts
    719
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammish View Post
    I'm at work so I don't have my sources at hand, but I'd say the above is giving too much emphasis on both the Germanic and Celtic influx as far as the population would be considered.

    I used to subscribe to the Celtic Eradication/Anglo Saxon Replacement theories, but in the last few years my reading on the matter has led me to believe that the pre modern age population of Great Briton proper is pretty much the same genetically, as the first immigrants from the receding of the Ice Age.

    Genetically, that is, not culturally, I think it's clear that first the Celtic, and then the Germanic cultures replaced the indigenous ones.

    I would suppose that this happened through the replacement of only the ruling elites with first a Celtic Elite, then a German one.

    As far as Linguistics, I think the now near extinct Scots language (Lallans) was closer to German dialects than Modern or Middle English was.

    Same to a lesser extent to versions of English spoken in the Danelaw areas.
    I am not overly learned on the area of genetics, but isn't it the case that various Y-DNA markers of R1b are predominate in the British Isles and that they are in turn associated with the Celtic and Germanic peoples, i.e. that they are authentic Indo-European markers and hence not associated with the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the British Isles?

  4. #4
    Senior Member SaxonCeorl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last Online
    Sunday, June 17th, 2018 @ 06:16 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Gender
    Posts
    418
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    13
    Thanked in
    7 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    1.) How Germanic (or if you prefer, how Celtic) are the English, Lowland Scots, and other people of the British Isles? It is known that the English derive from the Anglo-Saxons, but what of the native Brythonic element? How great is its input if any, be it through blood or other areas, in the English population? The traditional view and that based on linguistic evidence seems to say that the Celtic Britons were subject to eradication, being driven out, outproduced, or otherwise removed from the South and East of Britain. However recent scholarship seems to cast doubt on this.
    I've referred to this map on several occasions:



    To the extent this is accurate, it seems to indicate a settlement scenario that appears very logical: A sizeable population of Anglo-Saxons and (later) Danes landed and settled in eastern Britain, thus leaving a strong genetic "footprint" there. The kings and other political elites settled much of the rest of England and lowland Scotland, but there's no genetic evidence for a genocide or relocation of the Britannic population.


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    2.) On a related note and the matter of identity, would you say that the English and Scots are more similar to the Celtic British (Welsh, Gaelic Highlands and Isles, etc.) and Irish or to other Germanics? I've heard it said not a few times that this is the case and that continental Germanics and Scandinavians are more similar to each other than they are with the English or Scots. For those who are British or are of British ancestry, how do you personally see the matter? Do you see yourself more connected to the other Britons culturally and ethnically or continental Germanic peoples, or perhaps both in equal measure?
    I'm an American of partial English heritage and I identify with my Englishness more than anything else for several independent reasons. That said, I won't speak for native born Englishmen and Scots, but it seems to me that the history shared with the "Celtic fringe" as part of The United Kingdom, and all the power and glory that went along with that, would trump any association with the mainland Germanic countries.

    Much like a separate and new American identify was forged on the American frontier (look up Frederick Jackson Turner if you're interested in this), it could be argued that a separate, unique British identity arose during the years of Empire.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Last Online
    Monday, September 2nd, 2019 @ 09:27 PM
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic
    Ancestry
    British-German
    Subrace
    Nordid-Cromagnid
    Country
    Vinland Vinland
    Gender
    Politics
    Throne and Altar
    Religion
    Aryajnana
    Posts
    719
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonCeorl View Post
    I've referred to this map on several occasions:



    To the extent this is accurate, it seems to indicate a settlement scenario that appears very logical: A sizeable population of Anglo-Saxons and (later) Danes landed and settled in eastern Britain, thus leaving a strong genetic "footprint" there. The kings and other political elites settled much of the rest of England and lowland Scotland, but there's no genetic evidence for a genocide or relocation of the Britannic population.
    Yeah but there are also these maps. First showing R1b L21, which from what I understand corresponds to primarily to British Celtic groups:



    And then another map showing more generalized Celtic markers:


  6. #6
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    renownedwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Last Online
    Tuesday, August 13th, 2019 @ 01:07 AM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    Location
    Wales
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Religion
    Germanic Heathenry
    Posts
    814
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    11
    Thanked in
    8 Posts
    This may well ramble...and miss out a lot.

    Well primarily Germanic is a cultural thing. Britishness in the sense of the Imperial era comprised of an English culture by extension, i.e one of Germanicised Norman nobility, that comprised of some nominally Celtic countries that ethnically are closer to the Brythonic originals. It is/was purely a political entity 'Britishness', as we can see today that which has morphed into the cultural marxist version of it when any wog fresh off the boat or sprogs then popped out, is given a piece of paper which says he is now 'British'.

    I would also argue that England 'proper' as a functioning state did not exist until Norman feudalism.

    I do and I don't see myself as British, I do in the sense of the film Zulu..(something that only exists as part of a greater 'linked' ethnic consciousness forged by the same conquering drive that created England) but I don't in the sense Da'shawn and Moniqua (or any other half-caste) are considered British today. I'm however English, and 'Britishness' doesn't really mean much to me tbh. I could say I feel a certain kinship with other parts of the UK (and Aussies, Yanks etc) but then that is because they are heavily anglicized, Germany and Scandinavia aren't so much, even though there is a closer link culturally than to say the French (surprisingly apart from language influences we are very different), Russians or Italians.

    As for the ethnicity, I live in Wales and you only have to hop the border to see alot of difference further East you go, though it is doubtful a full scale genocidal replacement happened, Go to Cornwall or Liverpool..they look more like Celts. However the conquering male force was Germanic, however small. But then it is a case of splitting hairs between most European groups genetically IMO. My paternal line is Norman, my maternal is Saxon, no doubt somewhere along the line there is a Briton, but does it matter? I'm English, my ancestry is English, my culture is English, they fought and bled for the land, it is a spiritual thing also.

    My missus is Welsh, but with English and Irish ancestors..our boy looks like a blonde haired blue eyed SS Aryan poster child... genetically as a male and only being able to come from me he shares that legacy, no matter if he has a Welsh mum or was born in Wales and will be surrounded by a nominally Welsh culture he is English in that way. It might seem a little archaic to some but as long as he continues our line by giving me grandsons there will still be Englishmen in that sense.

    Cultures however come and go, England didn't exist once, Britain didn't, Germany, America neither, but there is always an 'Ur' spirit somewhere that links us and is a foundation.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Last Online
    Monday, September 2nd, 2019 @ 09:27 PM
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic
    Ancestry
    British-German
    Subrace
    Nordid-Cromagnid
    Country
    Vinland Vinland
    Gender
    Politics
    Throne and Altar
    Religion
    Aryajnana
    Posts
    719
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    I agree with what you have to say renownedwolf, but for the sake of further discussion I will make some comments:

    Quote Originally Posted by renownedwolf View Post
    Well primarily Germanic is a cultural thing.
    Yes, in a European racial context Germanic seems to be a cultural and linguistic thing, insofar as Germanicized Celts in Britain or Southwestern Germany, or some of the Germanicized Slavs in Prussia are now Germanic. But it cannot be a completely cultural and linguistic thing as you mentioned regarding the modern Marxist notions of ethnicity, or else an English speaking Jamaican who follows Germanic cultural norms as best as possible is now a Germanic.

    Another issue here is what I brought up initially. We may say the Irish, for example, are Anglicized to a degree but they are of course a Celtic people. The question is, are the Germanic English and Lowland Scots more similar in culture, manners, etc. to the Irish or to the Germans? (Though I suppose the issue becomes stickier in that there are also cultural differences between Northern Germans and Bavarians/Austrians.)

    Quote Originally Posted by renownedwolf View Post
    As for the ethnicity, I live in Wales and you only have to hop the border to see alot of difference further East you go, though it is doubtful a full scale genocidal replacement happened, Go to Cornwall or Liverpool..they look more like Celts.
    Are you here talking about some sort of racial taxonomic features (like North-Atlantid and Keltic Nordid being more associated with Celts and Anglo-Saxon and Borreby being more associated with Germanics) or the idea that Celts were the darker Britons and Germanics were the fair invaders? Personally at least I am of the opinion that both the Celts and Anglo-Saxons were predominately fair people and that the darker elements of the British populations in say Cornwall or Wales are more the remnants of pre-Celtic populations pushed into the West by successive invasions, which includes of course the Celts and Germanic people, or perhaps in a different model sailed from Iberia to parts of Western Britain in more ancient times.

    Quote Originally Posted by renownedwolf View Post
    Cultures however come and go, England didn't exist once, Britain didn't, Germany, America neither, but there is always an 'Ur' spirit somewhere that links us and is a foundation.
    I agree. That said, I wonder if there is also a certain spirit to be associated with particular ethnic groups, perhaps existing in genetic memory or other similar notions, which persists regardless of cultural, linguistic, or national changes. Say for example we take a Swede, raise him in Greece, and culturally and linguistically he is a Greek, is there an ethnic spirit or quality that persists which is Germanic?

    If we accede that this is the case, it raises interesting questions and perspectives on the nature of the Celtic component to European history and culture since, despite speaking a Latin tongue and coming from a Romano-Germanic cultural heritage, the French and Belgians for example would still largely be Celts, or at least Celts on some level. Similar conclusions could be made about the English and the Southwestern Germans as well. Of course here I am more or less brainstorming aloud, not making a claim of my own on the issue.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Last Online
    Friday, October 7th, 2016 @ 02:13 AM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Country
    Other Other
    State
    Cape Province Cape Province
    Gender
    Family
    Youth
    Religion
    none
    Posts
    972
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts
    How can anyone ascribe ethnicity to a single genetic marker?

  9. #9
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    renownedwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Last Online
    Tuesday, August 13th, 2019 @ 01:07 AM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    Location
    Wales
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Religion
    Germanic Heathenry
    Posts
    814
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    11
    Thanked in
    8 Posts
    If we are to think of a very similar Germanic similarity it would probably be the Prussian/British rigidly disciplined outlook, what is commonly known here as our 'Victorian values', something that could be seen well up to WW1, as today is not really the best way to judge our respective cultures for they have degenerated so much.

    I see 'Celts' for want of a better term as the North Atlantid dominant types, and Germanic English as the fairer lot in general. Though there were no doubt fairer waves of Celtic invasions previously. The swarthier, sometimes dark curly haired types as if I recall Tacitus mentions Silurians are probably a different pre-invasion lot from Iberia. I see quite a few of these deeper into West Wales today, away from the Southern coastal belt which can be quite mixed though predominantly North Atlantid types (I'm no expert on correctly identifying phenotypes btw) though certainly more with brown eyes than blue or green.

    "... the swarthy faces of the Silures, the curly quality, in general, of their hair, and the position of Spain opposite their shores, attest to the passage of Iberians in old days and the occupation by them of these districts; ..." (Tacitus Annales Xi.ii, translated by M. Hutton)
    I can only speak for myself in a limited capacity on that seeing as I was brought up in a foreign country from the age of 6 being the only fair haired English boy in a class of mainly dark haired Welsh who had been taught to hate the English by their ancestors, though again that Wales is heavily anglicised and that I was old enough to remember being from England and had regular contact with home probably was to my eternal benefit and galvanised me greatly against losing my identity completely. I used to get really upset as a kid when my own family back home mocked my burgeoning mixed English/Welsh accent as it made me feel like an outsider among my own, I didn't mind being the outsider among outsiders in Wales one bit though. Yet I always knew I was different somehow..often my entire outlook on life was different, so I'd say there certainly is a 'Germanic' spirit in there, (one that is probably part of a larger European racial consciousness) no matter how much crap gets piled on top it can only get subsumed so much by a more dominant culture at any point in time, like being Romanised, deep inside we are still barbarians. 'A tree needs the right soil to grow properly' as a rough analogy, that is essentially the force of what culture does

    Sometimes, however, the Gaelic blood asserts itself. The Frenchmen will then attack. But the French attacking spirit is like bottled lemonade. It lacks tenacity. The Englishmen, on the other hand, one notices that they are of Germanic blood. Sportsmen easily take to flying, and Englishmen see in flying nothing but a sport.

    Manfred_von_Richthofen

  10. #10
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Last Online
    Monday, September 2nd, 2019 @ 09:27 PM
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic
    Ancestry
    British-German
    Subrace
    Nordid-Cromagnid
    Country
    Vinland Vinland
    Gender
    Politics
    Throne and Altar
    Religion
    Aryajnana
    Posts
    719
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    How can anyone ascribe ethnicity to a single genetic marker?
    I don't think it is that one marker is equivalent to one ethnicity or tribe so much as generalized trends. Again, I only have basic knowledge on genetics, but its my understanding that R1b L21 for example corresponds mostly to the British Celts, but that in turn doesn't exclude the possibility of Norseman or Anglo-Saxons also carrying the marker, albeit in smaller numbers.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 8
    Last Post: Friday, March 2nd, 2012, 09:06 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •