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Thread: Runestones of Vinland/ North America

  1. #11
    Member hornedhelm's Avatar
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    Found a lot more information on the runestones in an older post. Thought I'd link it here in case anyone is interested.

    I'm gonna have to agree that where theres smoke theres fire. One or two stones here or there may be forged, but when you've got this many popping up with more and more evidence of camps and settlements they start to seem more likely.

    https://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=74477
    I'm a rover, seldom sober. I'm a rover of high degree. And when I'm drinking I'm always thinking of how to gain my love's company.

  2. #12
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    Nobody (worth their salt) in the academic community (archaeology or medieval studies) believes that the Kensington Stone is medieval. Also, there is no reason to believe that "Milwaukee" is Old Norse. There is an entire field called historical linguistics and that short amount of "evidence" is entirely unsatisfactory from any academic standpoint.
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    Eala Freia Fresena
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfriede View Post
    Nobody (worth their salt) in the academic community (archaeology or medieval studies) believes that the Kensington Stone is medieval. Also, there is no reason to believe that "Milwaukee" is Old Norse. There is an entire field called historical linguistics and that short amount of "evidence" is entirely unsatisfactory from any academic standpoint.
    Those 8 volume of language comparison contain 15,000 words.

    I don't believe anything historians say anymore. If you know the 'evidence' on which history is based on you lose all respect. History is a hoax.

    Prof. Fomenko stumbled over false history as he calculated celestial events in accordance to historical observation of celestial events. They are far off, so far that the whole history is a concocted story. It's simply a lie.

    The history we are taught has an agenda.

    Fomenko wrote a book which can be downloaded from archive.org. there he presents his findings and conclusions. Very interesting and eye opening.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    Yeah, what do I know? I just have a degree and a job in the field. Guess that doesn't matter though, people with degrees aren't to be trusted.
    Stick to Fomenko if you don't trust historians, because he definitely is not one. You can't trust anything a historian will tell you, but you can trust that guy for sure.
    Im Holderstrauch, im Holderstrauch.
    Der blühte schön im Mai,
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    Senior Member Angus's Avatar
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    I'm in class and on my mobile, but wanted to chime in. Bare with me.

    I'm very familiar with rune stones and Elfriede is right; there's absolutely no evidence of these rune stones being anything but a hoax. I've yet to get a job in the field, but it's well within my area of expertise.

    It's very possible that some authentic ones will be found in the future, especially with the recent discoveries within Vinland, but these aren't them. Best to move on.

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    Angus and Elfriede, you may both be correct. I will concede that its unlikely at best that at least all of them are real. But like you say, I do think the new discoveries in the vinland territory increase the plausibility.

    I ask you this though, why? Why would someone go through trouble to forge a runestone? What would they seek to gain from it? And how many farmers, of scandinavian upbringing or not, would have known the runes to that degree in the 17-1800s? As hard as it is to believe vikings travelled that far inland into north america, its equally as hard for me to believe there were many even amateur runic scholars in the country.

    Also, the vikings were in contact with peoples from other parts of northern europe, particularly the british isles. We know that there had been a few Irish settlers as far west as Iceland prior to the scandinavian settlement. Did no one else from northern europe learn of america's existence? Did they never voyage this far west? Why does it always seem to be a runestone, not some gaelic or ogham or something similar thats discovered? I find it easier to believe that some other artifacts from northern europe would be found as opposed to say the Newark Holy Stones which are supposedly jewish.
    I'm a rover, seldom sober. I'm a rover of high degree. And when I'm drinking I'm always thinking of how to gain my love's company.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hornedhelm View Post
    Angus and Elfriede, you may both be correct. I will concede that its unlikely at best that at least all of them are real. But like you say, I do think the new discoveries in the vinland territory increase the plausibility.

    I ask you this though, why? Why would someone go through trouble to forge a runestone? What would they seek to gain from it? And how many farmers, of scandinavian upbringing or not, would have known the runes to that degree in the 17-1800s? As hard as it is to believe vikings travelled that far inland into north america, its equally as hard for me to believe there were many even amateur runic scholars in the country.

    Also, the vikings were in contact with peoples from other parts of northern europe, particularly the british isles. We know that there had been a few Irish settlers as far west as Iceland prior to the scandinavian settlement. Did no one else from northern europe learn of america's existence? Did they never voyage this far west? Why does it always seem to be a runestone, not some gaelic or ogham or something similar thats discovered? I find it easier to believe that some other artifacts from northern europe would be found as opposed to say the Newark Holy Stones which are supposedly jewish.
    I understand the curiosity and, trust me, no one wants America's viking ancestry to be reinforced more than I. But it cannot be done by simply wanting to believe in something. I'm not flat-out saying that there were never vikings in NA besides the ones we already know about. There just exists no evidence for it if it did happen. Maybe it will surface in the future.

    Why would someone fake a runestone? I have no idea. Why do people do anything? I think the most curious part of the story is the linguistic element... though that is what, essentially, also gives it away as a fake. In the 19th century, there was a surge of interest in Germanic philology in the academic community. Is it unlikely that this person had access to academic works being produced at the time? Sure. But what is more unlikely? Especially given that the stone has been looked at numerous times by brilliant linguists. The runes themselves have manifested in strange places throughout history. They have a tendency to do that.

    I actually believe the wiki article on the stone does a good job explaining the linguistic issues with it succinctly.
    ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Runestone )
    Very basically: the language of the stone is not consistent with medieval language. It seems to sound more like someone who speaks English, trying to re-create something medieval. Unfortunately, historical linguistics is not what people think it is. It's not about saying X sounds like Y, so there must be a connection. That, honestly, is a bit insulting to linguists (not saying you are doing this, hornedhelm, my friend, but I have seen that attitude before).
    Im Holderstrauch, im Holderstrauch.
    Der blühte schön im Mai,
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    Ein Lied von Lieb und Treu...

  8. #18
    Member hornedhelm's Avatar
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    Thanks Elfriede for your posts. I've read the information you've posted about the grammatical and linguistic inconsistencies and agree they make a good case against their authentcity. I'm not blindly believing, just keepimy an open mind and posting to stir interest and debate!
    I'm a rover, seldom sober. I'm a rover of high degree. And when I'm drinking I'm always thinking of how to gain my love's company.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Angus's Avatar
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    Go figure! Elfriede has fantastically summed up every point I was going to make before I could get the chance.

    All I'll say with fear of sounding like a broken record is that it wouldn't be first piece of "evidence" that was created as a hoax and it won't be the last. It's actually quite common. People do so to try to bring their personal version of history credibility or just to f*ck with others. Ah humanity.

    I'm also a huge supporter of the notion that North America experienced a larger influx of Scandinavian explorers and settlers than we currently know. This huge Vinland flag that's hanging right behind me tells me so. Anyways, as most of us here already know just last month they've found another settlement south of the one at L'Anse aux Meadows and it surely won't be the last piece of evidence. As much as I wish it were true, these stones just don't match up and aren't real. Plain n' simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfriede View Post
    Nobody (worth their salt) in the academic community (archaeology or medieval studies) believes that the Kensington Stone is medieval. Also, there is no reason to believe that "Milwaukee" is Old Norse. There is an entire field called historical linguistics and that short amount of "evidence" is entirely unsatisfactory from any academic standpoint.
    I gotta go with Elfriede on this one. The alleged big breakthrough was the
    (alleged) dating of this Kensington Runstone using geologic methods. Sounds good, geology, hard science, etc., right? Wrong. The geologic method was nothing known and trusted in the world of archaeology. It was a geologist named Scott Walter who compared the scratched surfaces where the runes were incised with what he claimed to be similar rocks in New England. Somehow, using the purely subjective opinion of Walter, the scratch marks were over 300 years old. Sorry, but this kind of evidence does not stand up or represent much for archaeologists. They have been burned too many times. Remember Piltdown? The method of "dating" was surprisingly similar on that one to the Kensington runestone.

    It is a great story and mysterious but this whole episode does not rise to the level of accepted science, at least yet.

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