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Thread: Bodies Dug from Graves to Fuel Trade in Nazi Souvenirs

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    Bodies Dug from Graves to Fuel Trade in Nazi Souvenirs

    Grave robbers are digging up bodies of German soldiers killed in the Second World War to recover Nazi memorabilia, feeding a multi-million pound market, it emerged on Monday.
    Much of the trade is centred on Russia, where hundreds of thousands of Nazi soldiers died during the 1942 retreat from the Red Army.
    The items end up for sale on websites or at specialist fairs while the bodies are dumped in mass graves.
    Complete article at:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...souvenirs.html
    Lieber tot als Sklave!

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    Ghoulish.

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    And who buys such stuff? People who supposedly admire what those heroes did, usually. So because they are admired, their resting places are desecrated... this is truly a world with no soul.
    Most people think as they are trained to think, and most people make a majority.

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    For sure I have to admit that I do have no respect with ghouls and their activities. But...

    "Russia is big and the Czar far away" is an old russian proverb depicting the 'general absence of law in the grand width of Russia'.

    In general the russian populace is extremely poor with an average monthly income of less than $ 250.- nationwide.

    Taking this into consideration it might be understood that people have to take any opportunity to get hold of any extra money.

    What is not surprising with the soviet/russian mentality when the authorities are condemning former enemies as "scum" and "dregs".
    "Ein Volk, das keine Waffen trägt, wird Ketten tragen!"
    (A populace not carrying arms will carry chains)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huginn ok Muninn View Post
    And who buys such stuff? People who supposedly admire what those heroes did, usually. So because they are admired, their resting places are desecrated... this is truly a world with no soul.
    On the other hand, in this complex world, the grave robbers are fueling the memorabila maket, which in some cases will help promote NS.

    "Good" can come out of "evil" even as evil comes out of good. People today honour past heros and want memorabilia (good); grave robbers supply the market (bad); NS is promoted (good).

    From an utilitarian perspective, the grave robbers are good because they promote NS (and provide money for poor persons). From a "rights" view they are bad because they violate the "rights" of the dead to lie in peace.

    "Rights" and utilitarianism are often in conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pless View Post
    For sure I have to admit that I do have no respect with ghouls and their activities. But...

    "Russia is big and the Czar far away" is an old russian proverb depicting the 'general absence of law in the grand width of Russia'.

    In general the russian populace is extremely poor with an average monthly income of less than $ 250.- nationwide.

    Taking this into consideration it might be understood that people have to take any opportunity to get hold of any extra money.

    What is not surprising with the soviet/russian mentality when the authorities are condemning former enemies as "scum" and "dregs".

    Wherever you are on this planet you can always have a decent life if you have no problem with work. And these people obviously do have a problem with work as they would rather get a quick pay (which I doubt is anything special) by desecrating the dead than actually do something with their lives.

    Seen such trends over here over the past years. Many people abandoning their villages and farms, selling them for nothing and storming the cities hoping they´ll get easy money there,... and they do eventually, as leeches of the welfare system or criminals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Germania Magna View Post
    On the other hand, in this complex world, the grave robbers are fueling the memorabila maket, which in some cases will help promote NS.

    "Good" can come out of "evil" even as evil comes out of good. People today honour past heros and want memorabilia (good); grave robbers supply the market (bad); NS is promoted (good).

    From an utilitarian perspective, the grave robbers are good because they promote NS (and provide money for poor persons). From a "rights" view they are bad because they violate the "rights" of the dead to lie in peace.

    "Rights" and utilitarianism are often in conflict.
    No.
    I´ve seen many websites selling exact WWII replicas (made using the same materials and techniques of the time). That is promotion, and desecration of the dead is not!
    Lieber tot als Sklave!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haliaeetus View Post
    I´ve seen many websites selling exact WWII replicas (made using the same materials and techniques of the time). That is promotion, and desecration of the dead is not!
    Sure but its not the same as having the original is it?

    The basis and "value" of morality are more general questions. Does morality have any rational basis or at least a rational component? We try to be rational on these forums, to give correct information, to prove what we are saying but when it comes to the most important questions, morality, we are inclinced not to try to be rational. We use words like "decent" and "desecrate" to shut down rational discussion rather than to open it up. Is there more value to society to get the memorabilia than to leave the bodies? What about archeologists and the geneticists who study ancient bodies?

    _Why_ is it "wrong" to dig up bodies? This is precisely the sort of issue where discussion tends to shut down rather than open up. In practice society doesnt have black and white attitudes about graves.

    The bodies are anonymous and there are treasures there. Most people are cremated these days. All bodies are dug up in the UK after something like 200 years to make room for more. Otherwise the country would be taken over with graveyards.

    I suspect that permanent and individual burial in a flat position is a christian custom based on NT passages like "the dead who sleep will rise again." We used to deal with bodies differently like cremation or mound burial in the seated position (kurgans). Your term "desecration" is certainly a christian term. But like I said, we dig them all up these days and even the RC allow cremation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Germania Magna View Post
    Sure but its not the same as having the original is it?

    The basis and "value" of morality are more general questions. Does morality have any rational basis or at least a rational component? We try to be rational on these forums, to give correct information, to prove what we are saying but when it comes to the most important questions, morality, we are inclinced not to try to be rational. We use words like "decent" and "desecrate" to shut down rational discussion rather than to open it up. Is there more value to society to get the memorabilia than to leave the bodies? What about archeologists and the geneticists who study ancient bodies?

    _Why_ is it wrong to dig up bodies? This is precisely the sort of issue where discussion tends to shut down rather than open up. In practice society doesnt have black and white attitudes about graves.

    The bodies are anonymous and there are treasures there. Most people are cremated these days. All bodies are dug up in the UK after something like 200 years to make room for more. Otherwise the country would be taken over with graveyards.

    I suspect that permanent and individual burial in a flat position is a christian custom based on NT passages like "the dead who sleep will rise again." We used to deal with bodies differently like cremation or mound burial. Your term "desecration" is certainly a christian term. But like I said, we dig them all up these days and even the RC allow cremation.

    Archeologists don´t strip the bodies of everything and then dump them into a mass grave and then sell the artifacts on the black market.
    The body that has a nameplate with it is not anonymous, but after a graverobber takes it and sells it and then dumps the body into a mass pit then it becomes anonymous.
    I have nothing against archaelogists digging and doing research but I do have against criminals who are getting rich off dead people. If someone should take things off of those bodies it´s the families of those dead soldiers or perhaps a museum.
    Lieber tot als Sklave!

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