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Thread: Rudolf Hess (ᛉ1894 – ᛣ1987), Martyr for Peace

  1. #131
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    We argue that Hess was not in any way suicidal, and that he was murdered at Spandau to prevent his release, probably by the SAS.

    The real clue to what Himmler told Felix Kersten lies in the date of the Aga Khan's visit to Hitler at the Berghof. The substance of what was said on this visit, and how it affected Hitler, can be seen at the thread "Hitler and Islam".

    According to Christa Schroeder (Er war mein Chef, footnote 358), the date of the Aga Khan's visit was 20 October 1937.

    Frequently harping back on what the Aga Khan had said in 1937, psychologically it would be natural in his fireside talks with Hitler for Hess to have attempted to impress the Führer by remembering a "Muslim upbringing" in parallel with the other one, and to report his plans to study Islam and Sufi astrology in seclusion in the Bavarian Alps in his retirement.

    Himmler, who did not have the benefit of "a Muslim childhood" would mention to Hitler that so impressed was he by the Koran that he always happened to carry one on his person.

    All this would have been related to Kersten by Himmler and jotted down verbatim in his diaries. That the Allies should make capital out of Kersten's diaries is to be expected of them. It does not make the entries untrue, but all they represent is confidential chat on the masseur's table which may or may not have been subjected to elaboration by Himmler.

    It is absurd to suggest that Himmler was "atheist" when he was slapped down by Hitler in 1942 for planning to reintroduce the cult of Wotan.

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    ^ None of the Nazi leaders were Muslims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ohrdruf View Post
    Himmler, who did not have the benefit of "a Muslim childhood" would mention to Hitler that so impressed was he by the Koran that he always happened to carry one on his person.
    It was the Bhagavad-Gita that he always carried on him, not the Koran. I've never seen a source for your claim. (Himmler was an esoteric and dabbled in many cults, but MCP3 is a bit wrong about the Buddhist thing - it was the ancient Vedic religions that he was mostly into.)

    It is absurd to suggest that Himmler was "atheist" when he was slapped down by Hitler in 1942 for planning to reintroduce the cult of Wotan.
    I agree, Hitler was much more of an atheist than Himmler ever was. Several scores of volumes have been written on the topic of Hitler's religion, but most existing evidence says he was a lapsed Catholic with no actual religious beliefs apart from his almost-religious ethnocentrism ("Is it good for the Germans?").

    In Nietzschean terms, Hitler was an overman while Himmler was a slave-hearted man who needed a religion or holistic faith system to follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfadur View Post
    It was the Bhagavad-Gita that he always carried on him, not the Koran. I've never seen a source for your claim. (Himmler was an esoteric and dabbled in many cults, but MCP3 is a bit wrong about the Buddhist thing - it was the Vedic religions that he was really into.)


    I agree, Hitler was much more of an atheist than Himmler ever was. Several scores of volumes have been written on the topic of Hitler's religion, but most evidence says he was a lapsed Catholic with no actual religious beliefs apart from his almost-religious ethnocentrism ("Is it good for the Germans?").

    In Nietzschean term, Hitler was an overman while Himmler was a slave-hearted man who needed a religion or holistic faith system to follow.
    Buddhism is a Vedic religion. It is a later, populist version of Hinduism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unity Mitford View Post
    Buddhism is the populist version of Hinduism.
    It's rather the other way around, actually. Buddhism is a philosophy while Hinduism is a religion in the traditional sense. (I'm not talking about the commercialized modern pseudo-Buddhism here, but the original philosophy). Also, keep in mind that I said "the Vedic religion" in order to distinguish the old Indo-Aryan religion from modern Hinduism which has incorporated several Dravidian cults.

    I might add that Buddhism was first developed as a code of ethics for the Aryan warrior caste. So, you were right about Buddhism being a Vedic idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfadur View Post
    It's rather the other way around, actually. Buddhism is a philosophy while Hinduism is a religion in the traditional sense. (I'm not talking about the modern commercialized pseudo-Buddhism here). Also, keep in mind that I said "the Vedic religion" in order to distinguish the old Indo-Aryan religion from modern Hinduism which has incorporated several Dravidian cults.

    I might add that Buddhism was first developed as a code of ethics for the Aryan warrior caste. So, you were right about Buddhism being a Vedic idea.
    How can it be the other way around when Hinduism is older and the Buddhists honour the Hindu gods?

    Hinduism, with its emphasis on caste lost favour with the masses, which is why and how Buddhism spread.

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    As MCP3 has pointed out, Hess had no Muslim upbringing, he didnt even have "normal", let alone regular contact with the local population. Colonial schools also made sure that such contact would not happen.

    It's utter nonsense to claim that Himmler would carry a copy of the Q'ran with him. He probably had studied the book in the context of studying all available occult teachings and writings, but to conclude from that to anything more is fairly absurd, specially considering that Himmler did not intent to Islamise Germany, but to the contrary to cleanse it from all Semitic influence.

    It is true though that the small Muslim community (about 300 in the 30s) did not bother the govt. In contrast to many other religious institutions, it was neither outlawed nor closed down, because it was mainly for diplomats anyway.

    Last but not least, many of the so-called "personal accounts" of people within or near the NS govt have been shown to be fabrications, specially the table-talks, Speer's writings, the Goebbels diaries contain at least additions, etc. And when the Allies publish a work, they certainly are not interested in the naked truth, but in stuff that supports their atrocity propaganda and their desire to denigrate Hitler and NS.

    It's also dubious when "witnesses" only allow their "memoires" to be published after their death, as is the case with Christa Schroeder. There are 40+ years between the era and the book, which should tell a thing or two in itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unity Mitford View Post
    How can it be the other way around when Hinduism is older and the Buddhists honour the Hindu gods?
    "Hinduism" is not a static thing. The religion of the Indian subcontinent has gone through several changes over thousands of years, and was quite different in the day of Siddharta Gautama than it is today. As I said before, modern Hinduism (especially in South India) has incorporated many Dravidian gods and their cults.

    As for the Hindu gods - many branches of Buddhism do not worship any individual gods at all, seeing this as an obstacle to widening one's mind and attaining nirvana (the non-adherence to a single creator god is one of the distinguishing marks of Buddhism, for those who don't know.)

    Hinduism, with its emphasis on caste lost favour with the masses, which is why and how Buddhism spread.
    Of course, and this is the great historical irony of the Buddhists. A philosophy meant for the warrior elites became a mass religion of the lower classes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unity Mitford View Post
    Hinduism, with its emphasis on caste lost favour with the masses, which is why and how Buddhism spread.
    And then they turned to Islam as a way out of the caste system. So there is more to the Hindu-Muslim conflict than just religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ohrdruf View Post
    We argue that Hess was not in any way suicidal, and that he was murdered at Spandau to prevent his release, probably by the SAS.
    You could've stopped your post right here.

    What is it with you and Islam? This thread is about the mysterious death of Rudolf Hess and not any speculative connections that he, or any other German official, may've had with that religion.

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