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Thread: Underestimated/Misunderstood Historical Figures

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    Underestimated/Misunderstood Historical Figures

    Who would your choice be?

    To set the ball rolling, I would suggest Neville Chamberlain. Here was a basically honourable man committed to peace at a time when there was so much trouble brewing. He very nearly pulled it off but for a combination of Hitler's overambition in Europe and some dark forces (led by Winston Churchill) pushing for war in the UK.

    For folks like myself who believe that the best interests of Britain - if not the world - lay in an alliance with Hitler against Judeo-Bolshevism, I think his reluctance to fight NS Germany (until events eventually spiralled out of control) was the correct one. For those feeling that war was inevitable, he can be credited with buying Britain some precious time because in 1938 The Treasury was telling Chamberlain we couldn't afford a war against Germany whilst the MOD was telling him we couldn't win one!

    In my opinion, he handled an almost impossible situation extremely well!



    Neville Chamberlain (1869–1940)

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    At least from a Western perspective, I'd say Khalid ibn al-Walid is underestimated when it comes to the great military leaders of world history. Often when discussing great conquerors and military leaders, one hears the usual role call of Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Julius Caesar, Atilla the Hun, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, etc. but rarely does one ever hear Khalid ibn al-Walid mentioned.

    Some excerpts from Wikipedia:

    It was under his military leadership that Arabia, for the first time in history, was united under a single political entity, the Caliphate. He was victorious in over a hundred battles, against the forces of the Byzantine-Roman Empire, Sassanid-Persian Empire, and their allies, in addition to other Arab tribes. His strategic achievements include the conquest of Arabia, Persian Mesopotamia and Roman Syria within several years from 632 to 636. He is also remembered for his decisive victories at Yamamah, Ullais, and Firaz, and his tactical successes at Walaja and Yarmouk.

    Khalid is said to have fought around a hundred battles, both major battles and minor skirmishes as well as single duels, during his military career. Having remained undefeated, this fact makes him one of the finest military generals in history. Khalid was the architect of most of the early Muslim military doctrines,he was pioneer of almost every major tactic that Muslims used during Early Islamic conquest. In their mobility, Khalid's troops had no match until the Mongol hordes of the 13th century.
    He also had one of the most bad ass nicknames, Sayf Allah al-Maslul or "The Drawn Sword of God."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godwinson View Post
    Who would your choice be?

    To set the ball rolling, I would suggest Neville Chamberlain. Here was a basically honourable man committed to peace at a time when there was so much trouble brewing. He very nearly pulled it off but for a combination of Hitler's overambition in Europe and some dark forces (led by Winston Churchill) pushing for war in the UK.

    For folks like myself who believe that the best interests of Britain - if not the world - lay in an alliance with Hitler against Judeo-Bolshevism, I think his reluctance to fight NS Germany (until events eventually spiralled out of control) was the correct one. For those feeling that war was inevitable, he can be credited with buying Britain some precious time because in 1938 The Treasury was telling Chamberlain we couldn't afford a war against Germany whilst the MOD was telling him we couldn't win one!

    In my opinion, he handled an almost impossible situation extremely well!

    *image*

    Neville Chamberlain (1869–1940)
    About Chamberlain,
    Although you approve of the results of his actions, doesent make them good.
    In my opinion, you must judge his actions in the light of his visions/goals.
    And I don't think his goals were to support nazi germany.
    He was probably just a really weak and naive leader and politician, not unlike most of our politicians of today.


    I would put my money on Erwin Rommel.

    Although history have treated him fairly well, there is no doubt his efforts in the war, and his person are stained simply because he was a German officer, despite his refusal to execute war prisoners and jews

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    Needless to say...



    ---



    T.E. Lawrence, immortalized as "Lawrence of Arabia".

    He was a brilliant commander, and a fine-looking Germanic man. His exploits in the middle east, under the British, serve as a reminder to all of what European men can do once they are spurned to action.

    Quote Originally Posted by arthaus View Post
    About Chamberlain,
    Although you approve of the results of his actions, doesent make them good.
    In my opinion, you must judge his actions in the light of his visions/goals.
    And I don't think his goals were to support nazi germany.
    He was probably just a really weak and naive leader and politician, not unlike most of our politicians of today.
    Wrong. Chamberlain was a respectful leader, a good-hearted man who didn't want to send his people off to fight needlessly, let alone with someone they should have been allied with in the first place. Read a few books by John Toland, and Chamberlain's position starts becoming one that we can identify with. Even though he was pushed into war, he had done his utmost best at keeping things peaceful between the two Germanic nations, great Britain and Germany.

    I can't help but feel sorry for this man, that all he did was in vain.

    Ich liebe das Vaterland!

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    Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America. Fought for States' Rights and represented a thoroughly decentralised, agrarian confederacy that I see as something worthy of study.


    The Loyalists or 'Tories' of the American Revolution, who fought to keep the Empire together.
    William Franklin Governor of New Jersey, son of Benjamin Franklin and steadfast Loyalist, died in exile in Britain.

    Sir John Johnson, leader of the King's Royal Regiment of New York.

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    (The real) Joseph McCarthy:



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_McCarthy

    Turns out his fears of communist infestation were right, after all.
    Most people think as they are trained to think, and most people make a majority.

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    Misunderstood: Abraham Lincoln, 16th President of the US, that he fought against slavery and for blacks.

    Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858:
    will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races
    Letter to Horace Greeley of the New York Tribune:
    My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.
    Regardless of the Civil War issues, President Lincoln also tried to keep the power of printing money under Government control. Upon which the banksters and their friends in an editorial of The London Times during the Civil War wrote:

    If that mischievous financial policy, which had its origin in the North American Republic, should become indurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without a debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous beyond precedent in the history of the civilized governments of the world. The brains and the wealth of all coun*tries will go to North America. That govern*ment must be destroyed, or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe
    *****

    John Fitzgerald "Jack" Kennedy, 35th President of the US. For wanting to reverse the Federal Reserve Act, by attempting to bring the control of currency back to the US Treasury, issuing 'United States Notes', which mysteriously never entered circulation after his assassination (), while the FED notes are still printed.

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    Cisneros, a Spaniard, and for reasons which will soon become apparent.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis...ez_de_Cisneros

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis...lt_and_Crusade

    From his new position Cisneros set about reforming the Franciscan order in Spain. The ordained friars had to give up the practice of having "wives" (or concubines). They had to reside in the parish where they were supposed to work, attend confession, and preach every Sunday. There was intense opposition. By 1498 the reforms were expanded to include not only Franciscans but other religious orders as well. The resistance was so fierce that four hundred monks and friars fled to Africa with their "wives" and converted to Islam. The Minister General of the order himself came from Rome to interfere with the archbishop's strict reforms, but the stern and inflexible Jimenez, backed by the influence of a strong Queen, held firm in his convictions.

    In 1499 Cisneros accompanied the court of the Spanish Inquisition to Granada, and there joined the Archbishop of Talavera in his efforts to convert its Muslim inhabitants to Christianity. Talavera had used the more gentle measure of slow conversion through arguments, but Cisneros proceeded with the more direct and quick means of forced mass conversion and ordered the burning of all Arabic manuscripts in Granada except those dealing with medicine. The indignation of the unconverted Mudéjares (i.e., Iberian Muslims living in Christian territories) swelled into open revolt known as the First Rebellion of the Alpujarras. The revolt was suppressed and they were given a choice of baptism or exile. The majority accepted baptism and by 1500 Cisneros reported that "there is now no one in the city who is not a Christian, and all the mosques are churches". However, he had created an insoluble problem that would not end until 1609 when the Moriscos were expelled from Spain. (Morisco became the common term used for descendents of Iberian Moors in Spanish and Portuguese territory, regardless of their adherence to Christianity.)

    On November 26, 1504 Isabella died. Ferdinand claimed regency against his son-in-law Philip I of Castile, and Cisneros helped mediate the dispute in the Agreement of Salamanca which left Philip as king of Castile. When Philip died in 1506, Ferdinand was in Naples and Cisneros set up a regent government in his absence, and stopped a plot by a group of high nobles to take over the throne. In return for his loyalty, Ferdinand made Cisneros Grand Inquisitor for Castile and León in 1507 and prevailed on the Pope to give him a Cardinal's hat.

    The next great event in the cardinal's life was the crusade against the Moorish city of Oran in North Africa, in which his religious zeal coincided with Ferdinand's prospect for political and material gain. A preliminary expedition, equipped at Cisneros' expense, captured the port of Mers El Kébir in 1505; and in 1509 a strong force accompanied by the cardinal in person set sail for Africa, and in one day the wealthy city was taken by storm. Cisneros returned to Spain and attempted to recover from Ferdinand the expenses of the expedition, but Ferdinand was content with taking Oran and because of his greater interest in Italy he would not support Cisneros' plans for a larger North African crusade and conquest.


    As I've heard the story told, by a Spaniard, he forcibly converted the moors of that particular area in Andalusia to Catholicism knowing that they'd revolt- thus granting him the pretext of using more effective methods of subduing them (apparently the rules for dealing with Muslims were different than for dealing with Christians- as Christians the moors could be anathematized where as Muslims they were just infidels).

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