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Thread: How Far Back Does Ancestry Matter?

  1. #11
    Senior Member feisty goddess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olavssønn View Post
    I guess someone can be 100% European (for example) genetically speaking, and still have some distant non-European ancestor(s). But would that really matter, if the influence have been bred out, so to speak?

    Remember that you do not necessarily have important genetic influence from every ancestor that you are able to trace by genealogical research. Some elements will sooner or later be bred out and disappear from the genome, due to new genetic input...
    If that were the case they wouldn't really be 100% European genetically anyway, they would just think they are.

    I'm sure it matters to some people. Just because it doesn't influence what you look like doesn't mean it is obsolete. For example, if I dated a man who found out he had an African slave ancestor 10-13 generations back, I think I would break up with him. If it was something meditteranean, I could maybe live with that, but unless it's ancient like during neolithic times, I don't think someone can call themselves racially pure if they come from a non-European ancestor. I am not saying I'm incapable of having some swarthy mediterranean in the woodpile somewhere, just that it SHOULD MATTER. If someone with beautiful, good, pure, amazing genes marries someone who is questionable farther back, I think that's sad.

    I think its best to approach ancestry with an objective, "if it could physically happen, it is possible." It's less possible for Europeans to have distant ancestors of other races, so this doesn't apply to them in the same way, unless you're talking about gypsies or people from the middle east. It IS physically possible for White Americans to have non-European ancestors in the woodpile, because they were around Indians and slaves for a long time, so every American should be treated as questionable until they have proven themselves, no matter how they look or what they think they are. It's called racial hygiene, when you think there could possibly be germs, you should wash your hands, and if you don't, you WILL eventually get sick.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Olavssønn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feisty goddess View Post
    I'm sure it matters to some people. Just because it doesn't influence what you look like doesn't mean it is obsolete. For example, if I dated a man who found out he had an African slave ancestor 10-13 generations back, I think I would break up with him. If it was something meditteranean, I could maybe live with that, but unless it's ancient like during neolithic times, I don't think someone can call themselves racially pure if they come from a non-European ancestor. I am not saying I'm incapable of having some swarthy mediterranean in the woodpile somewhere, just that it SHOULD MATTER. If someone with beautiful, good, pure, amazing genes marries someone who is questionable farther back, I think that's sad.
    Well, I'm not saying that it wouldn't matter to ones understanding of ones total ancestral history, I'm just saying it wouldn't matter from a strictly racial-biological perspective. So it would be a difference between a more metaphysical understand of personal racial belonging on the one hand, and the strictly genetic definition of racial differences on the other.
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    Senior Member Adalheid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feisty goddess View Post
    The sooner you do a genetic test the better.
    Good idea. I've always wanted to do it. That being said I have traced every branch my genealogy at least ten generations without any strange surprises. I actually found tracing American genealogy significantly easier than Canadian. My father is an American, my mother Canadian. The Americans keep better records than up here. It's infuriating trying to find anything here, one must dig, and dig and dig to make a small breakthrough. Thankfully, when it comes to my own genealogy that wasn't as hard. Trying to find my husband's was more challenging because he comes from a line of Scandinavian settlers that avoided the church...not a bad thing, but the church certainly did help with records.

    By the way...does anyone have any suggestion for Scandinavian genealogy? We've found it hard because of how last names aren't always carried on...

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    Senior Member Todesritter's Avatar
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    Family history can lie, it can be a fiction, completely or in part from some branch of a person's family, like any history, being only as accurate as the sources available.

    Even barring cases where a person or a generation of a family may create a fiction for racial reasons*, things like poorly tracked adoptions or female ancestors secretly having a child with someone else different than their legal husband (I've read of this issue for instance with family history/ancestry in several cases where a young man married a young woman who was already pregnant, for loved, or a young woman from a wealthier family's parents offered money to avoid scandal, or where a first husband dies in war & his friend marries the widow, intentionally or unintentionally falsely attributing paternity of the eldest child to the later man in the family tree) in a previous generation introduces an increasing margin of error the further back one goes.

    Genetic testing does not have these ambiguities.

    * See "Melungeons" for a classic American example of this: http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...ught-they-were

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    Yeah, it could be possible I will never know who one of my biological great great grandfathers are. The man's surname on the birth certificate is different to the child's, who retained their mothers surname.

    What seems like obvious illegitimacy already.

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    Senior Member Todesritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sehnsucht View Post
    Yeah, it could be possible I will never know who one of my biological great great grandfathers are. The man's surname on the birth certificate is different to the child's, who retained their mothers surname.

    What seems like obvious illegitimacy already.
    Exactly, there can be all sorts of holes or inaccuracies in the classic ancestry/family history through no fault or intentional deception sometimes of the ancestors and definately never a dishonor for the descendants living in the present for whom the inaccuracy is unknown.

    Now that genetic testing is available though, the problematic unknown accuracy of family ancestry can be avoided, at least for racial & ethnic questions.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Olavssønn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feisty goddess View Post
    I think its best to approach ancestry with an objective, "if it could physically happen, it is possible." It's less possible for Europeans to have distant ancestors of other races, so this doesn't apply to them in the same way, unless you're talking about gypsies or people from the middle east. It IS physically possible for White Americans to have non-European ancestors in the woodpile, because they were around Indians and slaves for a long time, [...]
    This does actually to some degree apply to Europeans as well. Southern Europeans do often have a minor African influence, a lot of Eastern Europeans and Northern Europeans have some North Asian (or Siberian) genetic influence (in Scandinavians probably due to contact with the Saami, who are predominantly European genetically speaking, but have a considerable Siberian influence - probably around 10% and higher) etc.
    As a honest person, I shall readily admit that this to some degree also applies to myself. I did for a while think I was 100% Europid, getting back such results from 23andMe's analysis and dr. Doug McDonald. However, the more detailed results from Dodecad told another story, and it seems I might actually have between 1-2% non-Europid influence, Siberian (the Norwegian average in Dodecad K12b is 1%), if Dodecad's analysis have got it correct. Absolutely nothing to be proud of whatsoever, but the facts do not care about our feelings, unfortunately. As any ethnically or racially aware person, I would prefer to be 100% Europid genetically, but I just have to accept that I have this small influence from Siberia. It does not change either my concern for my people, or my identity in an ethnic sense.
    In a racially aware scenario, I'm in favor of positive eugenics by supporting the best couples to have more children than others, for example.
    "Man evolved in cooperating groups united by common cultural and genetic ties, and it is only in such a setting that the individual can feel truly free, and truly protected. Men cannot live happily alone and without values or any sense of identity…" - Alain de Benoist
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  8. #18
    Senior Member hyidi's Avatar
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    A DNA test would be the icy on the cake. Records can provide you with details some kind of knowledge but can not detect what blood they are carrying.

    For an example, English and Germans had be migrated to each other countries for the last past hundreds hundreds of years, no-one really knows if your ancestors are true English or German until you get a DNA test. Fact- The British Royal family 'prior to WW1' were from German decent or even fully blood Germans! I'm not joking,that's the truth (can't remember which one)

    European migration into Europe been going on for a long time,even French and Italians had priority into entering Germanic countries. The Romans conquered Britain passing their genetics through the English and Germans that migrated to Britain.

    I don't even know how much British Isle blood my dad's family are carrying. Any one of them could be product of an migrant from France, Italy, German, Swiss, Norwegian, Finland, Russia (I hope not) etc... but, until DNA is done,I can only claim British' that's were my fathers family were born and my Aussie mum father came from,but,that does not tell me the whole truth of my bloodline.

    In modern times,I think DNA is the best bet. Tracing your family would be a lot of fun and we all should do it. See what our Ancestors were up too, why they migrated? or If your family never travel afar abroad:- (100% English, one English's man's family never traveled afar, he turned out 100% English) the other proclaim white English had other European blood and exotic blood,even though, they thought they were 100% English.

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    Quote Originally Posted by feisty goddess View Post
    Well, I'm not really sure how precise it is in terms of checking what you get from EVERY ancestor. I've read papers that say it only tells you about the genes of 10% of your ancestors.
    I think autosomal tests check all sides of your family, but, since we have millions of ancestors, at some point the input of any individual ancestor is going to be minute. 10% of ancestors doesn't make much sense, because the number of ancestors we have multiplies each generation.

    http://www.dna-worldwide.com/ancestr...estry-testing/

    This site claims to test all sides of your family.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Adalheid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heidixx View Post
    no-one really knows if your ancestors are true English or German until you get a DNA test.
    I have done enough research to this point where I know for a fact who my relations are on all branches dating back 300 years, at minimum. My great, great, great grandfather from Norway's branch disappeared completely for me, and I have discovered some French on my English father's side five generations ago.

    The fact that some of you are saying that you'd question someone's race after finding out some 13 generations or roughly 400 years ago there was a non-European in the family frightens me. I'm all about racial purity, but at what point are we completely setting ourselves up for failure.

    Just because 1 person in 8192 ancestors chose an unsavory partner doesn't make you a non-Germanic person.

    Do you know what works out to? 0.0001% of one's lineage that is non-European 13 generations back.

    Give me a break. We can't even allow ourselves a tenth of tenth of a single percent before we start casting each other off as mixed?

    This might make me unpopular, but I would have no issue whatsoever marrying and having children with someone who has 8191 amazing ancestors....someone who is 99.9999% Swedish, or German or what have you.

    It's not even a a quarter of a single percent!

    That's just my opinion.

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