Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 48

Thread: On the Legendary German Morality

  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Last Online
    Wednesday, August 22nd, 2012 @ 12:02 AM
    Status
    On Holiday
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    New York New York
    Location
    in a valley between two lakes
    Gender
    Family
    Devoted father & husband
    Politics
    E Pluribus Unum
    Religion
    Ascension
    Posts
    585
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I've seen talk of the legendary German morality as the core of our culture, the thing that sets us apart from the rest.

    1. German culture requires strict and faithful monogamy.
    2. Courage is the greatest virtue
    3. There is a strong emphasis on physical health and agility, lots of comments about how robust the Germans are.
    4. Hard work and efficiency. (Ingvaeonic)
    5. That our word is holy, and a handshake is all that it takes (Neophyte)
    6. Personal honor (fidelity and honesty) is more important than your own life (renownedwolf) (Ingvaeonic)
    7. Hospitality. Cheerful giving within reason.(Moody)
    8. Self-reliance (Ingvaeonic)
    9. Discipline and self control. (Ingvaeonic)
    So, the thread title says German morals, but really what about these morals are particularly German? To the point, there is not a culture or people on Earth that would not benefit and prosper by the practice of these morals and where we find faults and deficiencies in cultures it is precisely because they haven’t.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Jens's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Last Online
    Thursday, October 4th, 2018 @ 06:11 AM
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Alemannisch
    Subrace
    Schwäbisch
    Country
    Germany Germany
    State
    Baden-Wuerttemberg Baden-Wuerttemberg
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Religion
    Atheist
    Posts
    190
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8
    Thanked in
    6 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Vindefense View Post
    So, the thread title says German morals, but really what about these morals are particularly German? To the point, there is not a culture or people on Earth that would not benefit and prosper by the practice of these morals and where we find faults and deficiencies in cultures it is precisely because they haven’t.
    They are German because they have been part of German culture for all of recorded history. This thread is simply about observing what moral expectations are, and have been, in German culture. The morals are not inherently German, but German culture includes them.

    These are more than virtues. For example, in America you might say that hard work is a virtue. It is not part of American morality because not working hard is seen as stupid, but not as immoral and deplorable, which it is in Germany. Do you see? Similarly, inefficiency and waste is seen as a nuisance in the USA, whereas Germans take that sort of thing as a personal affront, like shitting in the face of God.
    Apfelstrudel mit Vanillesoße, yeah I said it, what are you gonna do?

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Last Online
    1 Hour Ago @ 03:47 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-Saxon
    Ancestry
    British Isles, Germany
    Country
    United States United States
    Gender
    Family
    Married
    Politics
    Third Position
    Posts
    664
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    18
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    35
    Thanked in
    20 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Chivalry is the code governing knighthood, it was invented in the high middle ages and mostly only existed in songs and stories. The earliest origins we know of for chivalry are in France. The idea of the miles christis, the Christian warrior, is the core of chivalry. Selflessness, defending the weak, being a perfect Christian somehow, while still killing people. It's how the nobility, for a long time, lorded an illusion of moral superiority over their subjects. Even if we could show that it was a thing of the German knighthood, that would make it part of the culture of knighthood that never applied to most German people. I'm not sure what YOU mean by chivalry though, be more specific and I might be able to make something of it.
    Literally the knights of tales. Romancer of women, brave warrior, pious, self-less, etc. This does literally exist you know. The proto-type was laid by the Ostrogoths in Italy. Probably the best latest example would be the code of honour of the SS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean by camaraderie. I assume some sort of brotherhood thing. But to what extent do you mean? In war? In general? How does or has German culture valued or promoted camaraderie in a significant way?
    Kameradschaft. The Hirdmenn, the Chief's band of warriors described by Tacitus, etc. Hitler describes it in his speeches to the German youth. Willing to do everything for one's comrades, so on.

    You read of this in both sides of WWI and WWII. My favourite example is the conduct of the ANZACs at Gallipoli.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Jens's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Last Online
    Thursday, October 4th, 2018 @ 06:11 AM
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Alemannisch
    Subrace
    Schwäbisch
    Country
    Germany Germany
    State
    Baden-Wuerttemberg Baden-Wuerttemberg
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Religion
    Atheist
    Posts
    190
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8
    Thanked in
    6 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodericus View Post
    Literally the knights of tales. Romancer of women, brave warrior, pious, self-less, etc. This does literally exist you know. The proto-type was laid by the Ostrogoths in Italy. Probably the best latest example would be the code of honour of the SS.
    It's an ideal for a select group, it doesn't apply to most people. Also Ostrogoths had no knights and were not Christian, so whatever they had was not chivalry, though I would be interested to know what you speak of in that regard.

    Kameradschaft. The Hirdmenn, the Chief's band of warriors described by Tacitus, etc. Hitler describes it in his speeches to the German youth. Willing to do everything for one's comrades, so on.

    You read of this in both sides of WWI and WWII. My favourite example is the conduct of the ANZACs at Gallipoli.
    Ok, but is this really a distinct thing from honor and generosity?

    Also, in case you missed it, I can't edit the OP anymore, I think theres a time limit on it or something =(
    Apfelstrudel mit Vanillesoße, yeah I said it, what are you gonna do?

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Last Online
    1 Hour Ago @ 03:47 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-Saxon
    Ancestry
    British Isles, Germany
    Country
    United States United States
    Gender
    Family
    Married
    Politics
    Third Position
    Posts
    664
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    18
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    35
    Thanked in
    20 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    It's an ideal for a select group, it doesn't apply to most people. Also Ostrogoths had no knights and were not Christian, so whatever they had was not chivalry, though I would be interested to know what you speak of in that regard.
    The Ostrogoths were Christian, the 'heretic' Arian form of it.

    'Theodoric the Goth' by Thomas Hodgkin
    This incident of the early manhood of Theodoric is a good illustration
    of the Teutonic custom which Tacitus describes to us under the name of
    the _comitatus_, a custom which was therefore at least four centuries
    old (probably far older) in the days of Theodoric, and which, lasting on
    for several centuries longer, undoubtedly influenced if it did not
    actually create the chivalry of the Middle Ages. The custom was so
    important that it will be better to translate the very words of Tacitus
    concerning it, though they occur in one of the best-known passages of
    the "Germania".

    "The Germans transact no business either of a public or private nature
    except with arms in their hands. But it is not the practice for any one
    to begin the wearing of arms until the State has approved his ability to
    wield them. When that is done, in the great Council of the nation one
    of the chiefs, perhaps the father or some near relation of the
    candidate, equips the youth with shield and spear. This is with them
    like the _toga virilis_ with us, the first dignity bestowed on the young
    man. Before this he was looked upon as part of his father's
    household--now he is a member of the State. Eminently noble birth, or
    great merit on the part of their fathers, assigns the dignity of a
    chief[27] even to very young men. They are admitted to the fellowship of
    other youths stronger than themselves, and already tried in war, nor do
    they blush to be seen among the henchmen.[28] There is a gradation in
    rank among the henchmen, determined by the judgment of him whom they
    follow, and there is a great emulation among the henchmen, who shall
    have the highest place under the chief, and among the chiefs who shall
    have the most numerous and the bravest henchmen. This is their dignity,
    this their strength, to be ever surrounded by a band of chosen youths,
    an honour in peace, a defence in battle. And not only in his own nation,
    but among the surrounding states also, each chief's name and glory are
    spread abroad according to the eminence of his 'train of henchmen'[29]
    in number and valour. Chiefs thus distinguished are in request for
    embassies, are enriched with costly presents, and often they decide a
    war by the mere terror of their name".

    [Footnote 27: Dignationem principis; the true rendering of this sentence
    is very doubtful.]

    [Footnote 28: I think upon the whole "henchmen" is the best translation
    of this difficult word "comites", "Companions" is too indefinite;
    "comrades" implies too much equality with the chief.]

    [Footnote 29: Comitatus.]
    The passage goes on but for brevity's sake I won't include it all.

    'It doesn't apply to most people' -
    I have to disagree here. I think every man should strive to be chivalrous; to have that 'knightly' character we read so much about. Sort of reminds me of Stoicism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Ok, but is this really a distinct thing from honor and generosity?

    Also, in case you missed it, I can't edit the OP anymore, I think theres a time limit on it or something =(
    I am not sure. Perhaps one is an umbrella term that includes the other. But I have a specific image in my head of when I think of Camaraderie/Kameradschaft. Maybe 'brotherhood' could be another term, or at least a term under the umbrella of Camaraderie.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Jens's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Last Online
    Thursday, October 4th, 2018 @ 06:11 AM
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Alemannisch
    Subrace
    Schwäbisch
    Country
    Germany Germany
    State
    Baden-Wuerttemberg Baden-Wuerttemberg
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Religion
    Atheist
    Posts
    190
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8
    Thanked in
    6 Posts
    Interesting, I didn't know the Ostrogoths adopted Arius. I agree that chivalry is something that Germans should strive for, but it's a moral code that only fits into a military context. Please define for me exactly what you mean by chivalry, because what I was taught to be chivalry literally cannot be applied to civilians. Like Bushido.
    Apfelstrudel mit Vanillesoße, yeah I said it, what are you gonna do?

  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Last Online
    1 Hour Ago @ 03:47 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-Saxon
    Ancestry
    British Isles, Germany
    Country
    United States United States
    Gender
    Family
    Married
    Politics
    Third Position
    Posts
    664
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    18
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    35
    Thanked in
    20 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Interesting, I didn't know the Ostrogoths adopted Arius. I agree that chivalry is something that Germans should strive for, but it's a moral code that only fits into a military context. Please define for me exactly what you mean by chivalry, because what I was taught to be chivalry literally cannot be applied to civilians. Like Bushido.
    It was during the late 4th Century I believe. Their early King Athanaric actually tried to stop the spread of Christianity, because he saw it as a corrupter of Gothic culture.

    Ok, let me try with Chivalry. I outlined the warrior part. But for the civil part, great respect for the opposite sex, complete opposition to misogyny, a romantic man, etc. Whenever I read of such traits in Medieval Europe, it is almost like a lashing out of Germanic culture against the misogyny of the Catholic Church.

    No one mentioned women, so perhaps Chivalry towards women should be considered a part of German Morality.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Jens's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Last Online
    Thursday, October 4th, 2018 @ 06:11 AM
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Alemannisch
    Subrace
    Schwäbisch
    Country
    Germany Germany
    State
    Baden-Wuerttemberg Baden-Wuerttemberg
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Religion
    Atheist
    Posts
    190
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8
    Thanked in
    6 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodericus View Post
    It was during the late 4th Century I believe. Their early King Athanaric actually tried to stop the spread of Christianity, because he saw it as a corrupter of Gothic culture.

    Ok, let me try with Chivalry. I outlined the warrior part. But for the civil part, great respect for the opposite sex, complete opposition to misogyny, a romantic man, etc. Whenever I read of such traits in Medieval Europe, it is almost like a lashing out of Germanic culture against the misogyny of the Catholic Church.

    No one mentioned women, so perhaps Chivalry towards women should be considered a part of German Morality.
    Well, as I learned it, the package was always "Chivalry and Courtly Love". What you just said is the courtly love part, I think. I agree that German morality requires respect for women. Generally, an attitude of service for other people in the society. Sort of like the principle of brotherhood you mentioned, except extended to women as well. It's about doing your part, helping others (elderly and women) to do what they can't do as well, so that everything that needs doing gets done, without keeping score or expecting anything in return. Like investing part of yourself into the community to be part of something greater. I just don't think the word chivalry really does a good job of conveying that properly. It seems too stale and old timey. This requires getting yourself dirty, nothing that opening a door for a lady or tipping your hat could ever compare to.
    Apfelstrudel mit Vanillesoße, yeah I said it, what are you gonna do?

  9. #29
    Senior Member KingOvGermania's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Last Online
    2 Weeks Ago @ 01:52 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Germany, Austria
    Subrace
    Nordic-Alpine mix I believe
    Country
    Vinland Vinland
    Location
    Ered Nimrais
    Gender
    Occupation
    Student
    Politics
    Radical Traditionalist
    Religion
    Transcendental Naturalism
    Posts
    506
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    39
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodericus View Post
    It was during the late 4th Century I believe. Their early King Athanaric actually tried to stop the spread of Christianity, because he saw it as a corrupter of Gothic culture.

    Ok, let me try with Chivalry. I outlined the warrior part. But for the civil part, great respect for the opposite sex, complete opposition to misogyny, a romantic man, etc. Whenever I read of such traits in Medieval Europe, it is almost like a lashing out of Germanic culture against the misogyny of the Catholic Church.

    No one mentioned women, so perhaps Chivalry towards women should be considered a part of German Morality.
    Not only has Chivalry towards women been a part of German morality, but as has chivalry towards the environment and animals; we Germans have always respected the Earth, from Pagan days onward, and the first country to institute laws protecting the environment and animals;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lavao...ipcontrinter=1
    Let truth and falsehood grapple...truth is strong-
    John Milton

  10. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Last Online
    Wednesday, August 22nd, 2012 @ 12:02 AM
    Status
    On Holiday
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    New York New York
    Location
    in a valley between two lakes
    Gender
    Family
    Devoted father & husband
    Politics
    E Pluribus Unum
    Religion
    Ascension
    Posts
    585
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    These are more than virtues. For example, in America you might say that hard work is a virtue. It is not part of American morality because not working hard is seen as stupid, but not as immoral and deplorable, which it is in Germany. Do you see? Similarly, inefficiency and waste is seen as a nuisance in the USA, whereas Germans take that sort of thing as a personal affront, like shitting in the face of God.

    From what you are saying, it would seem that morality to Germans is more sentimental and appearance oriented, ie. the act is honored for its own sake and not it’s practicality, where the American is more pragmatic. Is that right?

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Enter the Dragon: Legendary Saga Courage and the Birth of the Hero
    By Catterick in forum Cosmology & Mythology
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Thursday, June 16th, 2016, 09:28 PM
  2. Legendary Viking Town Unearthed
    By Angus in forum Viking Age
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Friday, July 13th, 2012, 05:11 AM
  3. Legendary White-Skinned Cloud People of Peru
    By Veritas Æquitas in forum Anthropogeny & Ethnogenesis
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Saturday, January 14th, 2012, 04:19 AM
  4. Discovery: Legendary Lost Persian Army Found in Sahara; Pictures
    By Wurfaxt in forum Anthropogeny & Ethnogenesis
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Tuesday, November 10th, 2009, 05:10 AM
  5. Classify legendary soldier Blair Mayne
    By RedJack in forum Anthropological Taxonomy
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Saturday, September 17th, 2005, 09:26 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •