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Thread: On the Legendary German Morality

  1. #11
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    8. Chivalry
    Invented by our kind.
    9. Camaraderie

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    Senior Member Jens's Avatar
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    Chivalry is the code governing knighthood, it was invented in the high middle ages and mostly only existed in songs and stories. The earliest origins we know of for chivalry are in France. The idea of the miles christis, the Christian warrior, is the core of chivalry. Selflessness, defending the weak, being a perfect Christian somehow, while still killing people. It's how the nobility, for a long time, lorded an illusion of moral superiority over their subjects. Even if we could show that it was a thing of the German knighthood, that would make it part of the culture of knighthood that never applied to most German people. I'm not sure what YOU mean by chivalry though, be more specific and I might be able to make something of it.

    I'm not sure I understand what you mean by camaraderie. I assume some sort of brotherhood thing. But to what extent do you mean? In war? In general? How does or has German culture valued or promoted camaraderie in a significant way?
    Apfelstrudel mit Vanillesoße, yeah I said it, what are you gonna do?

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    Interesting topic, to be sure. Here is the intro and the nine enumerated virtues of Asatru. It is an interesting list and these virtues can and do often run through Germanic societies as practical standards and ideals from my observations.

    http://www.odinsvolk.ca/O.V.A.%20-%20NNV.htm

    NINE NOBLE VIRTUES of ASATRU
    The Asatru moral code of conduct is known as the Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru. The Nine Noble Virtues represent the distilled wisdom and ancient Germanic moral code gleaned from various ancient sources including the Poetic Edda (particularly the Hávamál), the Icelandic Sagas and Germanic folklore. To live as one of the True folk, you should lead your life in accordance with the Nine Noble Virtues.
    Interpretations of these virtues range from person to person, and from Kindred to Kindred. The following represent some of our opinions on how the virtues should be interpreted
    The ancient Heathens held these certain virtues to be spiritual law.
    These were not at all the only moral values of the ancient Heathens, but perhaps the most highly regarded. The ancient tribal laws began as custom and tradition, and these laws constituted those customs and traditions.
    Before anyone can even think of approaching the Gods & Goddesses of Asatru, they should first make sure they know these spiritual laws well and consistently strive towards them.

    THE NINE NOBLE VIRTUES:
    1) Courage
    2) Truth
    3) Honour
    4) Fidelity
    5) Discipline
    6) Hospitality
    7) Industriousness
    8) Self Reliance
    9) Perseverance
    These virtues were kept to enhance these aspects of being & qualities of the soul:
    Orlog
    Wyrd
    Hamingja

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    Senior Member Jens's Avatar
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    Ok, I think self reliance is very much present today, especially in the contempt for freeloaders that German society has.

    Fidelity, Truth, and Honour all kind of belong together I think. That is, I think honour includes truth and fidelity.

    That leaves discipline. I know germans are famous for it, but that is mostly based on Prussian military discipline. Does this really apply to Germanics in general?
    Apfelstrudel mit Vanillesoße, yeah I said it, what are you gonna do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Ok, I think self reliance is very much present today, especially in the contempt for freeloaders that German society has.

    Fidelity, Truth, and Honour all kind of belong together I think. That is, I think honour includes truth and fidelity.

    That leaves discipline. I know germans are famous for it, but that is mostly based on Prussian military discipline. Does this really apply to Germanics in general?
    When I was growing up, self-discipline and self-control were extolled as necessary and superior qualities or virtues to be practised. The Germanic love of order and abhorrence of disorder, which I have found is common to all Germanic peoples and especially Germanic peoples, would necessarily entail the practice of discipline, both self-discipline and outward discipline exercised by authority through the course of one's life. So discipline, in which inheres the practice of self-control, is a prominent quality among Germanic peoples. As a corollory to this, I would say, too, that Germanic peoples are not given to extravangant displays of emotion or that extravagant displays of emotion are generally frowned on in Germanic societies. This may have been more applicable to past generations than to the current generation.

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    About chivalry, I think one of its foundations can be described in the following words of Evola (Men among the Ruins, p. 213):

    The Christian precept of returning good for evil is opposed by the principle of striking the unjust, of forgiving and generosity, but only to a vanquished foe, and not to an enemy who still stands strong in his injustice.
    He doesn't present this in a specifically Germanic context, but I'm of the opinion that this expresses knightly chivalry in the middle ages very well, which even in non-Germanic countries had Germanic origins.
    It shows an interesting balance between acknowledging the necessity of conflict and respecting the honour of ones opponent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ingvaeonic View Post
    When I was growing up, self-discipline and self-control were extolled as necessary and superior qualities or virtues to be practised. The Germanic love of order and abhorrence of disorder, which I have found is common to all Germanic peoples and especially Germanic peoples, would necessarily entail the practice of discipline, both self-discipline and outward discipline exercised by authority through the course of one's life. So discipline, in which inheres the practice of self-control, is a prominent quality among Germanic peoples. As a corollory to this, I would say, too, that Germanic peoples are not given to extravangant displays of emotion or that extravagant displays of emotion are generally frowned on in Germanic societies. This may have been more applicable to past generations than to the current generation.
    This is the salient feature to me as well. It's no doubt this work ethic and self-mastery that made them the greatest and most productive European nation. Germany's always been synonymous with quality, efficiency, and a good, healthy straightforwardness that makes 'German made' a compliment in the highest proportion. I wish this culture would spread in the US. It seems more and more to be the opposite among on the youth. Liberal arts schools are chosen over sciences, 'sociology' over mathematics. And for what? To be 'individuals', which means to force out of themselves all vestige of natural Germanic constraint and follow a different trend, which is no more individual, and more more destructive.

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    Senior Member Jens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
    He doesn't present this in a specifically Germanic context, but I'm of the opinion that this expresses knightly chivalry in the middle ages very well, which even in non-Germanic countries had Germanic origins.
    As your quote itself and all evidence suggests, chivalry is a feature of the christian knighthood. Christianity does not have Germanic origins. Even if it did, the values of chivalry were purely for men of one, very narrow, level of society, and even within that group, the overwhelming majority of even that small group completely ignored it. By not applying at all to women, and not applying to the overwhelming majority of men either, and not having any actual Germanic origin that anyone has pointed out other than conjecture, I don't see how I could possibly adopt it as a Germanic virtue.

    These need to be things that are ingrained in Germanic culture, visible at all levels of society. Cultural values are things that are so imbedded in you that you consider them so self-evident that you can't remember ever learning them. Things you take for granted as being that way because they just are. It should be part of the cultural subconscious.
    Apfelstrudel mit Vanillesoße, yeah I said it, what are you gonna do?

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    - beauty

    in people, in culture, in architecture, in the environment

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    Senior Member Jens's Avatar
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    Err, it seems we have a problem I can't edit the OP anymore so I guess people will just have to read the thread.
    Apfelstrudel mit Vanillesoße, yeah I said it, what are you gonna do?

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