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Thread: The Influence of Roman/Greek Culture on Germanics and Its Value

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    The Influence of Roman/Greek Culture on Germanics and Its Value

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    People who think we owe absolutely nothing to the Greeks and Romans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodericus View Post
    People who think we owe absolutely nothing to the Greeks and Romans.
    Hm, yes didn't the Germanic tribes borrow the alphabet directly from the Phoenicians..?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodericus View Post
    People who think we owe absolutely nothing to the Greeks and Romans.
    Sure! We owe them some of the most epic victories in our Germanic history. The Goths sacking Rome, the united Germanic tribes under Hermann the Cherusker smashing Romans best legions in the Teutoburg forest...

    Thank you Romans - for trying to grab and occupy our lands like you did with the Gauls in France...and getting your butts kicked by our ancestors!

    What the village of Asterix and Obelix is iconic Celtic fighting spirit in microcosm, is the resistance of the Germanic tribes eastwards of the Rhine River on the large scale.

    "Judge of your natural character by what you do in your dreams" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thusnelda View Post
    Thank you Romans, for trying to grab and occupy our land like you did with the Gauls in France and getting your ass kicked by our ancestors.
    Mmm, as is the case of Greece conquering its conqueror Rome by way of enculturation, the same happened to the Germans who conquered Rome, enter the Germanic Kingdom successor states around the Mediterranean and former Roman provinces, eventually referred to as the Holy Roman Empire.

    Yeah, Anti-Romanism pisses me off, biting the hand that's fed for over 2,000 years. Granted, it is pretty badass how the Germans beat them on multiple occasions, but most of it is entirely unjustified and, frankly, sounds naive,

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    We always need a good enemy because it keeps us strong. Lessons were learnt (but not always heeded in the future) on both sides in that age. Never trust somebody with dual loyalties/citizenship for a start!

    So both being warrior cultures we have at least a little to thank each other for I suppose.

    'War is the Father of All things' Heraclitus

    Also it was Aristotle who remarked about the Spartan militaristic regime being destined to fail once they had nobody to fight.

    “States which are trained for nothing but war that, after they have acquired supreme power over those around them, they are ruined; for during peace, like a sword, they lose their brightness. This fault lies with the legestlator who never taught them how to be at rest.” Aristotle on why warrior societies will always fail.

    What I think he missed out on is that has been and there always will be something to fight against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    Mmm, as is the case of Greece conquering its conqueror Rome by way of enculturation, the same happened to the Germans who conquered Rome, enter the Germanic Kingdom successor states around the Mediterranean and former Roman provinces, eventually referred to as the Holy Roman Empire.
    Well, we can all agree that the Holy Roman Empire Of German Nation was a mostly Germanic successor of the old Roman Empire in a way that it continued with some of the achievements of the old time, but we must differ between "continuation of some cultural, political and ethic norms" and "military aggression and occupation". There was significant trade of goods and knowledge between the old Roman Empire and the Germanic world - both sides could profit from it.

    But all of this doesn“t change the fact that Roman imperialism and their expansion scenarios regarding the Germanic regions east of the Rhine River posed a an explicit threat to the Germanic sphere as a whole! Had the Romans been successful, chances are high that we Germans would speak a Romance language today like the French, with significant Romance cultural elements. That we speak a Germanic tongue today, with Germanic culturalization, is a consequence of decisive Germanic victories against the Roman Empire. The Romans reaped what they sow. They wanted to conquer the regions known as "Germania Liberia" and ended up being conquered by the Goths and, eventually, being sentences to mere historical figures in history books by the rest of the Germanic sphere.
    Yeah, Anti-Romanism pisses me off, biting the hand that's fed for over 2,000 years. Granted, it is pretty badass how the Germans beat them on multiple occasions, but most of it is entirely unjustified and, frankly, sounds naive,
    I“m not into "Anti-Romanism" but your "Romanticism about the Roman Empire" is a little bit exaggerated. There are enough aspects about the old Roman Empire that I respect and esteem, but we can“t forget about their cruelties and long-lasting insolence against Germanic populace on the British Isles (Hadrian“s Wall) and on the continent.

    "Judge of your natural character by what you do in your dreams" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    Yeah, Anti-Romanism pisses me off, biting the hand that's fed for over 2,000 years.
    What exactly have we been fed by the Romans? Most of their worthwile inventions and progress that has enriched Europe were merely a continuation of that of the Greeks. In addition to that, they were also the inventors of nationless citizenship, political centralization and religious institutionalism, as well as being responsible for the extinction of several European cultures. Nothing to be too grateful for, in my opionion.
    A nation is an organic thing, historically defined.
    A wave of passionate energy which unites past, present and future generations

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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    What exactly have we been fed by the Romans?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_technology
    You're welcome.

    (Not to mention lending the palate for political structuring and aesthetic used by 19th and 20th century political regimes including German & Russian Imperialism, Fascism, & National Socialism)

    Most of their worthwile inventions and progress that has enriched Europe were merely a continuation of that of the Greeks.
    That's correct, no culture arises out of a vacuum, all culture is continuum, including our own. Rome, essentially, was the perfection of the Greek ideal. Nor have all of Rome's cultural phenomenons or it's "achievements" been beneficial for ethnic preservation, but that's the rule of the strongest. It's not as if Gauls and Germans were happy go lucky peace loving natives who were raped by invading legions. On several occasions, German and Celt alike assaulted Rome & Greece prior to northern expansion. Romans had no compassion for their barbarian neighbors, much as the US army has no love of Al-Qaeda insurgents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thusnelda
    I“m not into "Anti-Romanism" but your "Romanticism about the Roman Empire" is a little bit exaggerated. There are enough aspects about the old Roman Empire that I respect and esteem, but we can“t forget about their cruelties and long-lasting insolence against Germanic populace on the British Isles (Hadrian“s Wall) and on the continent.
    I'm not saying it's right or wrong, that's just how it is. Call it Romanticism, nevertheless, I don't let loyalty to my origins get in the way of judging historical impacts. Nor do I pick up the Holocaust flag when lamenting the destruction of Celtic culture on continent and isle (Germans on the Isle prior to Hadrian's Wall? ), I should know, Celtic studies are one of my most competent areas. Yeah, it sucks that all that cultural disintegration occured, but no amount of complaining will change the fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    That article even states the Romans invented the plough. It also claims that Romans invented cement, but we know the Egyptians used cement for the pyramids. The Romans did not invent this stuff, but are known for spreading knowledge on it.

    Just two quick examples:
    Roads

    Wheeled vehicles with solid wooden disc-wheels were introduced into northern Europe around 2000 BC. An example of a disc-wheel, from the Netherlands, was found next to a wooden trackway: "it appears from this evidence that the introduction of disc-wheeled carts into…northern Europe required the invention of roadbuilding about 2000 B.C." An Early Bronze Age trackway, from shortly after 2000 BC, was found at Ballykillen Bog, near Edenderry, Co. Offaly in the 19th century. It may have been designed to carry disc-wheeled vehicles. A one kilometre (0.6 mile) section of a wooden trackway, three feet (approx. 1 metre) wide, was surveyed at Corlona Bog in Co. Leitrim in the 1950s. The trackway was dated to approximately 1500 BC but its narrow width makes it unlikely that it was used by wheeled vehicles. Similar wooden trackways and roads are known from all over Ireland from the Late Bronze Age. One example from Ballyalbanagh, Co. Antrim was seven feet (2 metres) wide and made from oak beams and planks: "its width suggests provision for cart or wagon transport."

    Archaeological excavations have found some roads built with stone in the Irish Iron Age. Ireland was never part of the Roman Empire and, therefore, Roman roads were not built in Ireland. However, a 22-kilometre long Iron Age road with a stone surface, part of a defensive complex, has been excavated in Munster:[6] this, along with similar excavations, demonstrates that "Roman methods of road construction were known in Ireland." Generally, most surfaced tracks from this period were made with wood and were designed to facilitate travel through (or to) bogs. Togher (Irish: tóchar) roads, a type of causeway built through bogs, were found in many areas of the country.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...ads_in_Ireland

    Aqueduct

    Although particularly associated with the Romans, aqueducts were devised much earlier in Greece and the Near East and Indian subcontinent, where peoples such as the Egyptians and Harappans built sophisticated irrigation systems. Roman-style aqueducts were used as early as the 7th century BCE, when the Assyrians built an 80 km long limestone aqueduct, which included a 10 m high section to cross a 300 m wide valley, to carry water to their capital city, Nineveh.

    Greece

    On the island of Samos, the Tunnel of Eupalinos was built during the reign of Polycrates (538-522 BC). It is considered an underground aqueduct and brought fresh water to Pythagoreion for roughly a thousand years.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqueduct


    (Not to mention lending the political structuring and aesthetic used by 19th and 20th century political regimes including German & Russian Imperialism, Fascism, & National Socialism)
    And 21th century. Even Norway and Cuba use the fasces as a symbol of power and authority, but I would not say our societies are in any way structured on the Roman one.

    Even the famous Roman sword, the Gladius, is not Roman.

    Early ancient Roman swords were similar to those used by the Greeks. From the 3rd century BC, the Romans adopted swords similar to those used by the Celtiberians and others during the early part of the conquest of Hispania. This sword was known as the Gladius Hispaniensis, or "Hispanic Sword"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladius

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hersir View Post
    That article even states the Romans invented the plough. It also claims that Romans invented cement, but we know the Egyptians used cement for the pyramids. The Romans did not invent this stuff, but are known for spreading knowledge on it.
    What you're looking under states on the title "Technologies invented or developed by the Romans"
    Develop: to bring out the capabilities or possibilities of; bring to a more advanced or effective state: ex. to develop natural resources; to develop one's musical talent.

    I don't think anyone posits that the Romans invented the plow
    Even the famous Roman sword, the Gladius, is not Roman.
    No, but evidently, they put it to better use than did the Celtiberians.
    but I would not say our societies are in any way structured on the Roman one.
    Neither would I. What I'm saying is major powers throughout history have continued the line of succession, or seen themselves rather as Roman successors; ensigns of European Civilization. See Translatio Imperii.

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