View Poll Results: Do You consider Iranians to be Europids?

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  • No I do not consider Iranians as Europids.(No Exceptions)

    61 38.13%
  • Yes I do consider Iranians as Europids.(No Exceptions)

    27 16.88%
  • I consider most Iranians not to be Europeans but a few are(Exception made for the few)

    72 45.00%
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Thread: Do You Consider Iranians to be Europid?

  1. #101
    Kamangir42
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    Post Re: Do You Consider Iranians to be Europid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahul
    Those European Populations must be in South Eastern Europe and SW Europe, to an extent. Please quote from the source on the specific locale.
    Please read what I have written. Cavalli-Sforza et al. in “The History and Geography of Human Genes” state explicitly that Iranians are very close to European populations. From the map, which can be found as Diagram 2.35 on p.82, shows Iranians close to the Danes, the English, the Greeks and the Italians. Common sense would indicate, based on geographical distance, that Iranians are more closely related to SE and S European populations than N and NW European populations. This is largely borne out by the study. Yet it also appears that Iranians are closer to Italians than the latter are to Greeks. I have no idea why and the authors do not try and explain it either. I believe the yellow circle in the upper right quadrant is the range of populations found indigenously in Europe (the Basque are on the margin and the Lapps and Sardinians are outliers – as are the Icelandics but they are not represented on the map - partly due to their isolated existence). The Northern Indians (I’m not sure if this includes Pakistanis but I think it probably does) are less close but still Caucasoid as every population found in the upper right quadrant is, of course. This is to be expected. India is farther away from Europe than Iran.



    This is the only wide-ranging study of genetic distance between populations undertaken to the best of my knowledge. The authors compile their data from 2900 articles from 136 journals. The study covers 142 alleles. No other study has ever come close to it as far as I know. A single study on Y chromosome or mitochondrial DNA haplotypes cannot even begin to compare to it.



    The fact remains. The genetic distance matrices Cavalli-Sforza et al. construct from all those alleles at all those loci and represent in the form of a map result in a very standard racial taxonomy that we would all recognise instantly.



    Yet Polak stubbornly denies its validity despite not being able to give any specific reason why is it “outdated”. He just “feels” it is. Perhaps he has been told this by the spirit world?



    It is still a very expensive book to buy showing that it continues to be the seminal text in its field. The unabridged edition with the atlases will set you back $225.00. You should be able to find it in good libraries though.

  2. #102
    Kamangir42
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    Post Re: Do You Consider Iranians to be Europid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahul
    This brings us to an interesting paradign shift.

    However we must not let ourselves get deluded by the prophets who see the past, instead why not ask the same question to your Faras kindred Shapur?

    How does Shapur know that Iranians are genetically related to the Greeks? Did he test them genetically to verify it? Did he travel back in time and came back, as well?


    Kurgan Region Culture is likely related to Slav as well as Indo-Iranians which later give us an idea of that early stage of Aryan Iranian Culture in Balkh/Bactria, Dashhli and Swat in Northern Pakistan, succeeding the Kurgan Culture. And then we have the PGW which extends into Hisar, arriving from a Slavic root.

    A few people are described in the Rg Ved. They include Shivasa, Vishanis, Alenas, & Pakhtasa. Vishanins were likely adherants of the ancient Slavic God of the same name. The flora and geographic locale explained here is North Western India and its rivers, especially named as well.
    I am not responsible for what Shapur writes and nor is he responsible for what I write. He has “different” political views to mine. I think many of his claims are overstated. My views stand by themselves.



    You would have to define “genetically related” for me to provide a fuller answer. As far as I know, all human populations are genetically related to some extent. On the basis of geography I would expect Iranians to be quite closely related to Greeks and certainly closer than, say, to Belgians. There is also the Cavalli-Sforza et al. study which finds that Iranians are very closely related to European populations.



    Personally, I think all this dissection of Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA studies is a waste of time. Often they disagree with each other considerably, have small sample sizes and a whole host of assumptions are relied on in the discussion sections.



    I didn’t really want to get into a critique of the conclusions of these studies on “Aryan” origins and migration. But I guess you have roped me in to this never-ending merry-go-round. As you yourself say, the Kurgan Culture is “likely” related to Slav as well as other populations. But how can we know this if the Kurgans have never been genetically tested (and given how old they are it is very unlikely we will be able to)? And how can we be sure that even if the Kurgans were “Aryan” they are related to the proto-Slavs or Slavs? How can we be sure that the Kurgans were not just an “Aryan” elite presiding over a largely “non-Aryan” population? How can we be sure that the Kurgans, or even more so the later Indo-Iranians, were genetically pure? Perhaps they did not just consist of carriers of a single Y chromosome haplotype? Perhaps some carried HG3 and some HG9? How can we be sure that “Aryan” even refers to a race of people? It could just be a cultural identity? Or perhaps they were simply a subset of a race? Can we really say that the Brahui are 40% “Aryan” or Kyrgyz are 60% “Aryan” or even Mongolians are 15% “Aryan”? Taking the Kivisild et al. study into account, can we say that the racially and linguistically Dravidian Chenchus are “Aryan”? How would that work? Perhaps a Dravidian elite obtaining dominance over an Aryan population once the latter had invaded southern India? Just look at the huge spread of HG3/M17 over the globe and realise that talking about “Aryan” this or “Aryan” that is a waste of time. We don’t even know the age of HG3/M17 for God’s sake.



    There are other problems too. In the Wells et al. study the Iranians from the Tehran region have 4% M17 yet in the Quintana-Murci et al. study, conducted in the same year, the exact same population has 14% HG3. Is this not strange to you? Further, there is more HG3 in Azarbaijan than in most of the centre of Iran. How then can we say that the central deserts formed a natural barrier (not taking into account that HG9 did not find it very difficult to go the other way) or that the population density in the Zagros mountains was high enough to absorb any “Aryan” migration? Azarbaijan is now most probably (and likely always has been looking at the geography) the most densely populated area of Iran, certainly higher than the Zagros mountains for obvious reasons. Does this make any sense? When the Wells et al. study examines Iranians from the Shiraz region with a sample size of 12, is this convincing to you? Does it make sense to you that nobody in the Shiraz region, where the “Aryan” Persians settled en masse, is found to have M17 in that study? How can this be an example of a dominance model if there are no traces of the supposed dominators?



    Do not even get me started on HG9/M172 and its description as the “Semitic” gene. Do not get me started on the description of Elamite as Dravidian when there is no reliable evidence whatsoever that this is the case. A few hundred Brahui wander in the deserts of Baluchistan and suddenly Iran becomes the homeland of the Dravidians! Where is the evidence?



    As for your comments, they provide some circumstantial evidence of some sort of migration. We do not know if it was from north to south or from south to north. We don’t know its size. We don’t know its origin or who these people were. You interpret your texts in one way whereas Iranians, as well as Greeks and Italians, interpret it in another. Besides, there were no Slavs until the 5th century CE. We don’t know where the Proto-Slavs were from or what their genetic makeup was.



    I think I will stop now but I could go on and on. I also do not appreciate your mocking of Persian culture as “Semitic” or Farsi as “Semitic-accented” or your disparaging remarks in general about my culture. Do you not recognise the influence of Persian culture on your civilisation Rahul? Would you like to start comparing Persia and Kashmir head to head? Our culture has kept the traditions and history of “Aryans” alive so that Slavs, dissatisfied with their own history and culture apparently, can try to steal our identity. Over my dead body! Where is their Norouz I may ask? Where is their Shahnameh? Where is their Behistun Inscription? We were a nation of empire builders thousands of years before anyone claimed to be a Slav. Using whose blood, sweat and tears have we survived, assaulted but always ready to rise up again when our enemies are just a page in a history book?


    Let me just end by saying that I have great respect for any Pakistanis who try to emphasise and celebrate the non-Islamic parts of their culture as I have for Iranians who do the same.

  3. #103
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    Post Re: Do You Consider Iranians to be Europid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak

    Btw, so anyone got any studies on Iranian autosomal DNA?
    Why I am not suprised that nobody has this Information?

  4. #104
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    Post Re: Do You Consider Iranians to be Europid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oskorei
    IMO Iranians (at least the pure specimens) are Aryans, and this is more important than if they are European or not.

    And Shia is an Aryan form of Islam (just look at the concept of the Hidden Imam/Mahdi=Kalki).

    There are No Pure Specimens(Aryans) left in All of Iran(There are just those with Aryan blood in higher concentrations and these are the minority of Iranians). The "Aryans" settled Iran 1000's of Years before Christ. Since than their blood has been Severly diluted. Was not India like Iran settled by "Aryans" but where are they today? The blood of Aryans was just a few drops in these countries. Where they are concentrated now are in the Slavic Nations.

    Islam is not an Aryan Religion it is a Religion for Arabs made by Arabs! Islam's birth place was in Saudi Arabia and it's Prophet Mohemmed was an Arab. Shiite Muslims:a Muslim of the Shia branch of Islam
    http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...nary&va=shiite
    Shia means: the Muslims of the branch of Islam comprising sects believing in Ali and the Imams as the only rightful successors of Muhammad and in the concealment and messianic return of the last recognized Imam -- compare SUNNI
    http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...ionary&va=shia
    It has nothing to do with being "Aryan". Where are you getting all this from?

    Also I think you have a misconcenption of the word "Aryan" the World "Aryan" in the National Socialist Sense is not the same as "Aryan" in the Iranian sense.
    What Hitler meant by "Aryan" was Northern Germanics and this had nothing to do with the true meaning of "Aryan". The Real "Aryans" were like Polak said Eastern Europeans who lived in the Steppe Region around the Black Sea 1000's of Years ago.

  5. #105
    Kamangir42
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    Post Re: Do You Consider Iranians to be Europid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Paladin
    There are No Pure Specimens(Aryans) left in All of Iran(There are just those with Aryan blood in higher concentrations and these are the minority of Iranians). The "Aryans" settled Iran 1000's of Years before Christ. Since than their blood has been Severly diluted. Was not India like Iran settled by "Aryans" but where are they today? The blood of Aryans was just a few drops in these countries. Where they are concentrated now are in the Slavic Nations.

    Islam is not an Aryan Religion it is a Religion for Arabs made by Arabs! Islam's birth place was in Saudi Arabia and it's Prophet Mohemmed was an Arab. Shiite Muslims:a Muslim of the Shia branch of Islam
    http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...nary&va=shiite
    Shia means: the Muslims of the branch of Islam comprising sects believing in Ali and the Imams as the only rightful successors of Muhammad and in the concealment and messianic return of the last recognized Imam -- compare SUNNI
    http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...ionary&va=shia
    It has nothing to do with being "Aryan". Where are you getting all this from?

    Also I think you have a misconcenption of the word "Aryan" the World "Aryan" in the National Socialist Sense is not the same as "Aryan" in the Iranian sense.
    What Hitler meant by "Aryan" was Northern Germanics and this had nothing to do with the true meaning of "Aryan". The Real "Aryans" were like Polak said Eastern Europeans who lived in the Steppe Region around the Black Sea 1000's of Years ago.
    What has being "Aryan" got to do with being Caucasoid/Europid? You are trying to confuse the issue. Come to think of it, define an "Aryan". What is the genetic marker for an "Aryan"? Show me the studies on Iran which show that Iranians are not "Aryan".

    Slavs are "Aryans"? If they are "Aryans" how come they never called themselves by that name until they tried to steal it from us, along with our past and our culture?

    Define "pure". You do know that there are no genetically "pure" populations on the planet, don't you? Prove that Iranian blood has been "diluted". I see you are from the USA. Isn't that full of Mongoloids and Negroids? If your reasoning is correct, this means that you must be a "mixed breed"?

    There is nothing "Aryan" about Islam. Besides, I'm not a Muslim. Persian culture is much more than that silly religion. We celebrate Norouz. We celebrate our glorious past as described in the Shahnameh. We speak our own language and have our own customs. Indeed, Persians have imported several Zoroastrian elements into our brand of Shia Islam such as the concept of the a hidden Imam. This is most probably going way over your head but it's true nonetheless.

    And you are one to talk about being "Aryan". How "Aryan" a religion is Christianity? How "Aryan" was Jesus and his message? What makes you so "Aryan"? Is it because you feel "Aryan" in your bones?

    I don't care what Hitler said about "Aryans". He was a pathetic loser who committed suicide. His skull used as a paperweight by Stalin. But even if you take Hitler's views into account, he himself said that Iranians were "Aryans". Of course, you wouldn't know that.

    I know your sort. You are a "white" nationalist who supports Bush who is pursuing a policy largely thought up by Jews and aided by a cabinet composed of blacks, Asians and Hispanics. Can you see the inconsistency?
    Last edited by Siegfried; Sunday, July 18th, 2004 at 07:23 PM. Reason: edited yet another ad hominem attack out. Stop insulting other people's intelligence.

  6. #106
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    Post Re: Do You Consider Iranians to be Europid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir42

    I don't care what Hitler said about "Aryans". He was a pathetic loser who committed suicide. His skull used as a paperweight by Stalin. But even if you take Hitler's views into account, he himself said that Iranians were "Aryans". Of course, you wouldn't know that.
    that have never happened pal, his idea was rather placed on the pretty logical theory of germanic horsemen settling in and civilising india and persia. about that map i can tell that is largely a forge. that map seems to go around the net quite a lot but you arent to believe every piece of crap around. there are also maps that mark greeks brothers with east ethiopians, sforza for making genetic maps should be considered he is primarily a linguist not a geneticist. about coon, his works are indispensable and pretty much accepted in terms of subraces but for now its very outdated and pseudoistic. i dont remember coon classifying majority of iranians as irano afghan, he classified the overwhelming majority as orientalid altough these two subraces are closely related most of the time.anyway his sense of europid is in a need of upgrade soon as you see the stuff we are arguing on, such as spending hours for proving that a southwest asian nation is not at all a part of the european genetic makeup, all because of a very fatal terminology error.

    i think iranians might have about 2.9-3.4% negroid and 3.6-4.2% mongoloid paternal ancestry, so mostly caucasoid. persians from different parts of the countries. 3.4%marked l1l3a sub saharan marker. this however rise to 4.2% with kurds.(di rienzo&wilson). there is no tat-c and other so implied mongoloid indicator researches avaliable so its only a parallel common guess parallel to neighboring countries. also eye blondism frequencies of central iranian plateau cities are given as 3/30, 2/32, 4/42, 7/45.(rondo, di rienzo&wilson respectively). these numbers are rather pointing out exoticism and about 5:1 rationally lower than darkest south europe statistics. ofcourse you can anytime post some bollywood actresses with compact eyes and extra white makeup to prove out your countrymen

  7. #107
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    Oskorei's Avatar
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    Post Re: Do You Consider Iranians to be Europid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Paladin
    There are No Pure Specimens(Aryans) left in All of Iran(There are just those with Aryan blood in higher concentrations and these are the minority of Iranians). The "Aryans" settled Iran 1000's of Years before Christ. Since than their blood has been Severly diluted. Was not India like Iran settled by "Aryans" but where are they today? The blood of Aryans was just a few drops in these countries. Where they are concentrated now are in the Slavic Nations.
    The Indian Aryans are found in the higher castes, where blondism and blue eyes are still not too uncommon. You can also find blond and blue-eyed Iranians, and they also tend to become much more light-skinned in Sweden than in Iran. I also have met several Iranians with an Aryan/noble behaviour, and a Pan-aryan ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Paladin
    Islam is not an Aryan Religion it is a Religion for Arabs made by Arabs! Islam's birth place was in Saudi Arabia and it's Prophet Mohemmed was an Arab. Shiite Muslims:a Muslim of the Shia branch of Islam
    http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...nary&va=shiite
    Shia means: the Muslims of the branch of Islam comprising sects believing in Ali and the Imams as the only rightful successors of Muhammad and in the concealment and messianic return of the last recognized Imam -- compare SUNNI
    http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...ionary&va=shia
    It has nothing to do with being "Aryan". Where are you getting all this from?
    Where shall I begin? Islam was "born" among Arabs (some sources claim that Mohammed was redhaired, but we'll leave that aside for now). However, when the Persians adopted Islam, it became mixed with Persian/Aryan ideas. Just like Christianity became mixed with Pagan ideas in Europe. And this mix became the Shia-branch of Islam. There are several parallells between the indigenous Aryan religion of Iran and Shia, like the belief in the Mahdi that will one day return and avenge the rightful. This is similar to the Shaoshyant or Kalki found in Aryan religion or Hinduism. More parallells can be found, and this is what I mean when I say Shia is an Aryan branch of Islam. Of course Zoroastrism is even more Aryan. If you think I meant that all Shiites are automatically Aryans, you must think that I'm stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Paladin
    Also I think you have a misconcenption of the word "Aryan" the World "Aryan" in the National Socialist Sense is not the same as "Aryan" in the Iranian sense.
    What Hitler meant by "Aryan" was Northern Germanics and this had nothing to do with the true meaning of "Aryan". The Real "Aryans" were like Polak said Eastern Europeans who lived in the Steppe Region around the Black Sea 1000's of Years ago.
    I dont really give a *** what Hitler, or even Polak, meant by Aryan. There are enough definitions of the word Aryan, most of them older than him, and I am free to choose whichever I see fit. Try reading some Evola.

  8. #108
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    Post Re: Do You Consider Iranians to be Europid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Paladin
    Europid=European Caucasoid.
    Exactly! Thanks for the correction!



    You should learn your definitions before you accuse others of being of low intelligence.
    Indeed I should.




    You forgot to include Indians and Arabs in your List of what you consider Europid .
    I've never pretended that I've listed all the Europid sub-types.Anyway many indians have dravidian blood which is not exactly caucasoid. Dravidians are race that couldn't be refered to any of the three major races. It is considered that they are neither europid nor mongoloid nor negroid.



    Caucasoid is a general terminology.
    Really?

    Europid is specifically used to refer to European Caucasoids.
    Which means that you as an American Caucasoid are not Europid.
    BTW:
    Tell me, northern, do you find any differences between Australian and Australoid, Mongolian and Mongoloid, American and Amerind ? Just curiosity...
    Do you think, for example that Japnese are Mongolians or Australians of british descent are Australoid??.. Make sense,...Ja?




    Why are you defending Iranians with such Zeal?
    I don't know May be I should start defending someone defenceless like you instead
    Last edited by Tribunale Dei Minore; Sunday, July 18th, 2004 at 10:02 PM.

  9. #109
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    Post Re: Do You Consider Iranians to be Europid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axelrod
    that have never happened pal, his idea was rather placed on the pretty logical theory of germanic horsemen settling in and civilising india and persia. about that map i can tell that is largely a forge. that map seems to go around the net quite a lot but you arent to believe every piece of crap around. there are also maps that mark greeks brothers with east ethiopians, sforza for making genetic maps should be considered he is primarily a linguist not a geneticist. about coon, his works are indispensable and pretty much accepted in terms of subraces but for now its very outdated and pseudoistic. i dont remember coon classifying majority of iranians as irano afghan, he classified the overwhelming majority as orientalid altough these two subraces are closely related most of the time.anyway his sense of europid is in a need of upgrade soon as you see the stuff we are arguing on, such as spending hours for proving that a southwest asian nation is not at all a part of the european genetic makeup, all because of a very fatal terminology error.

    i think iranians might have about 2.9-3.4% negroid and 3.6-4.2% mongoloid paternal ancestry, so mostly caucasoid. persians from different parts of the countries. 3.4%marked l1l3a sub saharan marker. this however rise to 4.2% with kurds.(di rienzo&wilson). there is no tat-c and other so implied mongoloid indicator researches avaliable so its only a parallel common guess parallel to neighboring countries. also eye blondism frequencies of central iranian plateau cities are given as 3/30, 2/32, 4/42, 7/45.(rondo, di rienzo&wilson respectively). these numbers are rather pointing out exoticism and about 5:1 rationally lower than darkest south europe statistics. ofcourse you can anytime post some bollywood actresses with compact eyes and extra white makeup to prove out your countrymen
    On which studies you are basing these numbers?

    Kurds maternal: 5% I, 10% W, 30% HV/H, 35% U, 20% K/J.
    Kurds paternal: 16.8% HG1, 16.8% HG2, 11.6% HG3, 40% HG9, 7.4% HG21, 4.2% HG26, 3.2% HG28

    Very negroid.... Then how much are Europeans negroids? 80%?


    Oh you think it might... This list like a joke.
    A think also it might that nation x should be have 10% negroid and 10% mongoloid blood.

    You showed that you know nothing about this matter and you should read befro you write!

    Btw I must say that there is no difference between Persians, Kurds, Lurs, Gilakis etc. we are all Iranians if we live in Iran or in other countries like Iraq, Turkey, Tajikistan, Afghanistan.
    We are one nation and feel so and every Iranian has the hope that one day we will united again. So please don`t speaking so much about Persian culture or Kurdish culture. The culture is one! It is Iranian culture!
    All celebrate Newrooz(New Day) and behave like our old Zoroastrian ancestors.

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    Post Re: Do You Consider Iranians to be Europid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oskorei
    The Indian Aryans are found in the higher castes, where blondism and blue eyes are still not too uncommon.
    Actually these are very rare. Very uncommon. Btw blondism is more common among australian aborigenes (australoids) It is strange how different degree of pigmentation is found among different species, different races etc. which leads to the conclusion(no need to be genius) that depigmentation could have different origin. Do you think that blue-eyed cats are genetically related to nordids and those cats with darker eyes to mediterraneans?

    You can also find blond and blue-eyed Iranians, and they also tend to become much more light-skinned in Sweden than in Iran.
    Indeed, just like the ancient persians are much more light-skinned in european theories than in Iran.

    I also have met several Iranians with an Aryan/noble behaviour, and a Pan-aryan ideology.
    I've met some europeans with noble behaviour.

    Where shall I begin? Islam was "born" among Arabs (some sources claim that Mohammed was redhaired, but we'll leave that aside for now).
    Actually he was swede. Just like Jesus (Jeshua Ben Josif) btw.

    However, when the Persians adopted Islam, it became mixed with Persian/Aryan ideas. Just like Christianity became mixed with Pagan ideas in Europe. And this mix became the Shia-branch of Islam. There are several parallells between the indigenous Aryan religion of Iran and Shia, like the belief in the Mahdi that will one day return and avenge the rightful. This is similar to the Shaoshyant or Kalki found in Aryan religion or Hinduism. More parallells can be found, and this is what I mean when I say Shia is an Aryan branch of Islam. Of course Zoroastrism is even more Aryan. If you think I meant that all Shiites are automatically Aryans, you must think that I'm stupid.


    I dont really give a *** what Hitler, or even Polak, meant by Aryan. There are enough definitions of the word Aryan, most of them older than him, and I am free to choose whichever I see fit. Try reading some Evola.
    Agreed, there are too many definitions of aryan. Poor aryans.

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