View Poll Results: Is Vedic religion, with its doctrine of renunciation and moksha, good for Germanics?

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Thread: The Aryan Vedic Religion

  1. #11
    Senior Member Gugnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    The fight between the Aryan Gods and the darkies is aeons old.

    Darkies influence 'religion' to make Aryans not fighting for the Earth but retreating into a nice and emotional space, that is why there is 'religion'. it is twisted with truth and untruth.

    Don't follow books but yourself. Think, feel and test your way and then do so without hesitation.

    when 'Gods' come to bring you off your way let them proof to you that they are what they say.

    Humans are one of highest creatures in the universe with enormous power. the Koran says human come straight after Allah and the angels and archangels are to support us.

    there is no higher being then yourself.
    But the original sources - Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita - were Aryan in origin, were they not? If so, why would our Aryan ancestors make up such folly?

    -Gugnir

  2. #12
    Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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    I don't find the life of a renunciate or kowtowing to dirty statues with many arms to be very interesting. If I wanted to follow an eastern path I'd take up Zen.

  3. #13
    Senior Member paraplethon's Avatar
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    The Gita should be read as an 'internal manual': Arjuna in battle against his cousins is representative of the internal war within ourselves of the numerous 'identities' or 'ego's' or 'psychic aggregates' all trying to supercede the others, and in doing so, stifling the original and true essence that is our real being. This is the reason why people are one person in one moment and another person (sometimes entirely) in another moment - we're fractured and largely unaware of our essential being, what comes more into play is the personality.

    As far as the concept of the material world being an essentially negative realm - or at the least a world of illusion or 'maya' as it's sometimes called - this could well be due to a misreading of certain texts: missing the esoteric heart of them and substituting something more base in its place.

    Note also there were Western groups who had a similar conception of the material world - the Cathars as an example, though their reasoning is rather more than it being mere 'illusion'.

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    Senior Member Bearkinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gugnir View Post
    But the original sources - Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita - were Aryan in origin, were they not? If so, why would our Aryan ancestors make up such folly?

    -Gugnir
    I think Velvet had the best answer in that there has been a long separation in the path of the ancient Aryan and the modern Indian, and the original meanings have gotten corrupted.

    I think it's much closer to think of what they meant as :living in the now". Rather than worrying about the future and whipping yourself over the past, life as fully as you can in the now. You of course set goals, and a plan of action. But when you have your plan, live it to the fullest, rather than over analyze and stagnate due to fears of "what ifs".

    Ever notice how smoothly things go when you're "in the zone"? I think their meaning was to teach yourself to be "in the zone" as much as possible. Doesn't matter if it's working on some great plan, or listening to music, give yourself totally to living, and stop letting yourself be torn this way and that over things that, very likely, you have no control over, are other people's problems, or really won't affect you.

  5. #15
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    As for the negative conception of matter, I think it is too often misunderstood what is meant by matter. What they refer to is pure matter. The world around us is not pure matter, although it seems more and more like it in the modern age. Perhaps it's better to say that life as such (and all necessities that come with it) are not pure matter. They are rather 'spiritualized' matter. As Sallustius says in the quote in my signature, the world is like a myth. It is actually alive because of the immaterial that is 'behind' it, the world of spirit, Gods and souls. Sallustius' friend the emperor Julian who agreed on most aspects with Sallustius, even criticized Christians for being hostile to the world.

    It's the same like that with Plato. His view of the transcendent world of Ideas is often seen as an escape from this world. Yet his political ambition is the creation of an ideal state on this earth; he doesn't advocate sitting somewhere in a cave meditating on Ideas (though not intended, this comparison of course reminds of the famous allegory of the cave, in which the cave is actually like a prison). This ideal state would never be truly ideal, but it would at least make political life a higher type of life. So he does respect life, as long as it takes part in the transcendent.* According to him something even is only real to the extent that it takes part in the transcendent realm. Pure matter is not reality.

    So what might seem trivial at first sight (for example music) does not have to be something bad from this perspective. Music in Plato's ideal state, but also in Christian religion (which in my view somewhat perverted the negative conception of matter to the extreme) was actually something good, as long as the music was good i.e. music of a higher order, or rather spiritualized music. In sacrifice as well contact to immaterial Gods has always been via a material medium (f.e. holy animals or plants) because through this matter, the God in question manifested himself. Again, the matter was spiritualized and therefor Good.



    *Copleston in his first volume of A History of Philosophy in my view correctly argues that Nietzsches criticism of Plato as someone who hates life is too harsh because of this.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Alfadur's Avatar
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    The ancient Vedic religion shouldn't be equated with Hinduism. Sure, it was the source material for Hinduism and its off-shoot Buddhism (originally developed as a code of ethics for the Aryan warrior caste), but to say that it's the same thing as the modern religions is rather inaccurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gugnir
    But the original sources - Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita - were Aryan in origin, were they not? If so, why would our Aryan ancestors make up such folly?
    First, the ancient Aryans were by no means united around a single religious worldview and a common spiritual goal. Second, it all depends on which modern translation of the Bhagavad Gita that you've reading.

    The most popular English translation of the Gita is Prabhupada's translation, and is probably the least useful version of the ancient text. It actually tries to force the meek, submissive "Hare Krishna worldview", which is based on mistranslated words and utterly wrong interpretations. For example, Brahman is subordinated to the concept of Krishna as "The Supreme Personality of Godhead", whenever a term like "Bhagavan" (or even Brahman itself) appears. In this context, the ancient Sanskrit texts define "Bhagavan" as a monistic principle in accordance with the old Vedic knowledge of the Upanishads. The highest Brahman is not a personal god, nor any supreme personality, but actually reality without attributes, devoid of any personal or "human" qualities which the ego projects onto the world that he sees.

    However, the ancient Vedic philosophies are very far from both the Hare Krishna cult and the mainstream Hinduism of today. Imagine the differences between the Old Testament and the Roman Catholic religion, times a hundred. As has been said before, the modern Hinduism is a diluted religious mish-mash of Aryan and native Dravidian cults. (For example, the war goddess Kali is a native deity, while the thunder god Indra is the same Indo-European deity as Thor.)

    Modern Indians are by no means Aryan, but the ancient ones most certainly were before mongrelization from Arabs among other nations, as were Iranians.
    It depends on what you mean by "Indian". The vast majority of India's native people were always the dark-skinned part-Veddoids they are today. The upper castes of Aryans, in their purest form, were originally the same race as the old Iranian nomads (the East Nordid racial type was predominant). However, in both India and Iran, the ruling elite of Aryans was only a culture-changing dominant minority that was diluted into the masses of natives.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Sigyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gugnir View Post
    But the original sources - Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita - were Aryan in origin, were they not? If so, why would our Aryan ancestors make up such folly?
    You probably have more Old Europeans in your ancestry than Aryans.

    Anyways, I agree with the above posters: that the ancient Aryans didn't have a single unified worldview and religion. Some of them came up with the things you call "folly", others didn't. Also, other posters mentioned how Hinduism got influenced by the native religions in the area.

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    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
    Music in Plato's ideal state, but also in Christian religion (which in my view somewhat perverted the negative conception of matter to the extreme) was actually something good, as long as the music was good i.e. music of a higher order, or rather spiritualized music.[/SIZE]
    I think you may be mistaken regarding matter and Christianity. It seems to me that Christianity considered heretical the extreme negative conception of matter that could be seen in the Gnostic religions, and I believe Christianity has a less evil conception of matter than even Plato. Consider that God's creation is inherently good according to Christian theology, and the matter of the universe is part of his creation.

    A speech turned into an article by Prince Charles that I found interesting touches on this at one point:

    Modern materialism in my humble opinion is unbalanced and increasingly damaging in its long-term consequences. Yet nearly all the great religions of the world have held an integral view of the sanctity of the world. The Christian message with, for example, its deeply mystical and symbolic doctrine of the Incarnation, has been traditionally a message of the unity of the worlds of spirit and matter, and of God's manifestation in this world and in mankind.
    http://www.sacredweb.com/online_articles/sw13_hrh.html

    If matter was evil in Christian theology, then Christ should never have come in the flesh and his physical form too would be evil. This was the major point of contention between the Gnostics and the Christians.

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    Senior Member Gugnir's Avatar
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    To those defending "Hinduism" (I mean the ancient Aryan religion but I use Hinduism for convenience): I understand what you are saying, however, the Gita - and I've looked at what I believe to be three separate translations - comes across as pretty adamant that enjoyment of this life and this world is not a good thing, and I don't see how anyone can get around that.

    -Gugnir

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    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gugnir View Post
    To those defending "Hinduism" (I mean the ancient Aryan religion but I use Hinduism for convenience): I understand what you are saying, however, the Gita - and I've looked at what I believe to be three separate translations - comes across as pretty adamant that enjoyment of this life and this world is not a good thing, and I don't see how anyone can get around that.

    -Gugnir
    It isn't a good thing, because enjoyment of the world is enjoyment of impermanence and ultimately will bring pain and not enlightenment. To the Hindus pleasure and plain are like two sides of the same coin, therefore the best attitude toward pleasure and enjoyment of the world is one of detachment, to seek neither pleasure nor flee from pain. Pleasure and enjoyment of the world leads to attachment and desire, both of which are impediments toward self-realization.

    The whole point is to not seek for satisfaction in the outward world which is thought of as illusory, but to seek satisfaction within through discovery of the deathless Self, which is the ultimate goal of man anyway and the only means by which permanent peace/satisfaction can be found.

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