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Thread: Are Pagan Gods Demons?

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    The whole Germanic-gods-are-demons mentality has been around for a very long time. Even Einhard, Charlemagne's biographer and de-facto private secretary, described the old Germanic gods worshipped by the Saxons (whom Charlemagne converted to Christianity by the sword after massacring 4,500 of them and cutting down their sacred tree, the Irminsul) as "demons" and "devils" and the worship of same as "devilry". (I'm sure most students here of Germanic history and Germanic religion would of course know about Charlemagne and the Franks' intermittent 32-year-long war against the Saxons.) Closed- and small-minded attitudes have been like this down the centuries (though they seem particularly prevalent among many, but certainly not all, Christians). It was ever thus.

    Though not a follower of any religion, clearly as I'm an atheist, I would recommend to those that are followers of the old Germanic gods and their ways to ignore bigots prejudiced and biased against any gods or religion other than the bigots' own. Those followers of the old Germanic gods and their ways ought to be secure in their spiritual beliefs and practices, and so unaffected by others' negative views and opinions about the old Germanic gods and their ways. To express it another way, any prejudice or bias against, or unfavourable opinion or view, of the old Germanic gods and their ways, ought to be a matter of complete indifference to someone well-grounded and secure in his beliefs in the old Germanic gods and their ways. Power comes from belief.
    Between the devil and the deep blue sea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Germania Magna View Post
    The old saga stories that cast the Germanic gods as demons talk about them specifically attacking christian converts who had turned against the old gods. The gods had always been seen as having power over natural phenomena like the winds needed by sailors, over storms, and rain. People prayed to the gods for supernatural help and they were afraid that the gods would punish them or abandon them to their fate unless prayer was made. Thus it is only natural that the Germanic gods would turn against christian converts. So the gods were seen as "demons" by christians precisely in the way that they had previously been seen as gods: that is, that the gods were able to help those pagans who honoured them and to hinder or harm those who abandon them or go against them. The Jewish god was seen in just the same way, able to help or harm but he was seen as a god by the christians and not as a demon. The difference between a god and a demon wasnt seen as a simple difference of "good" vs. "evil": both gods and demons (old gods) were able to do good or evil. The religious allegiances of the people determined whether they were seen as god or demon. The monotheistic christian mentality involved comes down to the verse in the Psalm: "Our Jewish god is god; all the gods of the non-Jews are demons." Christianity is intolerant because it is monotheistic and that determines how they cast other gods. The other Semitic religions are also monotheistic and intolerant: Judaism and Islam. Indo-European Aryan religions are polytheistic and tolerant: Aryans can pick which ever gods they think are cool.

    So to answer the question in this light: if a demon is a Germanic god who helps his own people and who fights against traitors then may we have these "demons" on our side. And to hell with the Jewish demon who turns us against our own gods and turns our own gods against us! May we honour all gods apart from the monotheistic Semitic gods.

    Sometimes the audacity of christians is really unbelievable ! They are twisting the truth here to the point is should break apart ! We welcomed the first christians, and not only allowed them to live their believe, but even allowed them to evangelize people. Oh what a grave mistake our ancestors made by that, but i am not accusing them here, they couldnt have known that the christians would turn on them as soon as they had enough followers. They attacked us, and forced us to leave our old gods with fire and sword, and to add insult to injury they are trying to rewrite history so they look like the good guys.
    Now if they really think that those gods would attack them they should rethink their believe ! They claim that god is way mnore3 powerful then all demons combined, so how come her doesnt prevent that ? Is he not willing to do it, though he could he is evil. If he is willing to help them, but not powerful enough his priests are lying about his power. Either way they should leave Yahwe !!!
    Now about our gods : how is it demonic what they do ? Those new christians
    had all sworn loyalty to ODIN the allfather, the AESIR and the VANIR ! When this loyalty was put to the test they betrayed them and defected to Yahwe, so the old gods had every reason to punish these people !!! There is nothing evil about that ! They betrayed their gods when their loyalty was really needed, and now they are paying the prize for that betrayal, period !!!



    Quote Originally Posted by TheStormer View Post
    Judging from my research and personal experience, these beings we call "demons" entice people with flattery and lies mixed with truth. Deities, on the other hand, will not hesitate to point out some uncomfortable truths about ourselves, so we can evolve spiritually. Once demons have access to our lives, they only work for our physical and spiritual destruction, while the gods improve us and make us better people.

    Of course, I have never had to deal with demons, so I cannot validate my statement. However, I have had some incredible experiences with the gods and goddesses and I can say for certain that they are mostly positive. The only negative experience I can think of was when I worked with Aphrodite while I was experimenting with different heathen faiths. She came across as rude and uncaring, but she was not out to harm me.

    I have also noticed that those who experience demonic attacks dabbled into the occult for personl gain. I think its safe to say that this one of the methods which the Divine uses to punish selfishness. These diabolical influences have a purpose, for the most part. (An exception would be a loving family that moves into a house that is already inhabited by a demon or devil). Also, these selfish occultists tend to engage in some pretty horrific rituals that are comparable to the Hebrew sacrifices in the Old Testament. They appear to desire negative results, probably to come across as "eccentric" or "shocking" or even "demented". I have personally dealt with these people who wish to be thought of as odd or freaky for some unknown reason. I think the Divine responds to these people in this manner. "So, you want to experience evil? Then, so be it!"

    I mostly agree with your post here, but have to add a bit. When people dabble in the occult they also might draw attention to themselves by entities like the elves, or even loki himself, and get answers from them. Some of them are harmless and just want to play pranks on the person trying to summon something, others are not so harmless
    There won't be humans in 500 years. Enough people choke themselves when they jerk off we gave it a name. We ain't a species made to last.

    Judging by it´s name common sense must once have been a pretty common thing. When and why did that change, so it became the rare treasure it is today???

  3. #43
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    There's a few instances in the "good book" about Yahweh accepting human sacrifices- even child sacrifices, i.e. the aborted sacraficing of Isaac by Abraham is a good example. It's called the "abomination of Moloch" in the Bible iirc and it seems as if Yahweh disapproves of the practice, but only when it's to foreign gods (i.e. Baal, Melqart, and other "idols") but he seems to have nothing against humans being sacrificed to him from time-to-time. Quite a nasty fellow and rather reminiscent of the Mesopotamian demons, gods, spirits, etc. of the ancient period- which is just exactly what he was before he got promoted to sovereign of the universe by his marginal followers in Judea. Yahweh was a rather peripheral deity originally amongst the Canaanites/Phoenicians, one of the many sons of El called the Elohim (El was equated to Saturn by the Greeks):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_(Canaanite_deity)

    The Yahwehists calling the deities of others demons is pretty silly, especially considering that their own deity has had some rather devilish traits himself (whitewashed out of the record of course).

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    Demons for one people may well be the gods of another and vice versa. For the people who consider them gods this is and should be irrelevant what others say. Ing is spot on on that. The gods are our gods and end of story. What does it matter for us what others think about them? It's not our problem. Our problem is to keep those people out of our cultures and countries so that we also dont have to care about their opinion.




    Primus, human sacrifice is highly ritualised and absolutely central in christian masses. They drink the blood of Jebus every sunday and they eat the flesh of Jebus every sunday. They believe that the wine and bread actually become the blood and the flesh during the mass. To eat the flesh and drink the blood of another human is a highly Satanic ritual in order to ingest the powers of that human. We find this practice in purer form in more primitive, tribal cultures like the Maori or some African tribes when one tribe triumphs over another in ritualised cannibalism, ie the chieftain of the subdued tribe is eaten by those who won in order to ingest his power. To eat one's own "god" though is quite unique and may well be the reason for some of the schizophrenic beliefs maintained within the christian cult. Also jewish cult for that matter. Not that there's much of a difference anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Primus, human sacrifice is highly ritualised and absolutely central in christian masses. They drink the blood of Jebus every sunday and they eat the flesh of Jebus every sunday. They believe that the wine and bread actually become the blood and the flesh during the mass. To eat the flesh and drink the blood of another human is a highly Satanic ritual in order to ingest the powers of that human. We find this practice in purer form in more primitive, tribal cultures like the Maori or some African tribes when one tribe triumphs over another in ritualised cannibalism, ie the chieftain of the subdued tribe is eaten by those who won in order to ingest his power. To eat one's own "god" though is quite unique and may well be the reason for some of the schizophrenic beliefs maintained within the christian cult. Also jewish cult for that matter. Not that there's much of a difference anyway.
    This was a criticism of the educated pagans in antiquity and I think that the argumentation remains valid even though times have changed. Celsus makes the same assertion in True Doctrine. Basically his argument can be summed up as:

    * The central theme of the Christian cult is a human sacrifice. << Key point, not spoken of much. Thomas Paine has a variation that the central theme of Christianity is the murder of an innocent man, this it's a murderous religion or somesuch.
    * Christians practice human sacrifice via the eucharist which:
    a) The ignorant interpret literally.
    b) The wiser interpret allegorically but do little to check the superstition of the ignorant, who comprise the bulk of the Christ-cult.

    Or something along those lines; it's been a bit of time since I read the material.

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    You just need to look into the christian past to see, who is really the evil one here. Every new culture it came into contact with it tried to destroy ! Just look how many cultures christianity has destroyed. Let us look for example into the culture of the mayas : we only have 3 texts from them left, all the others where destroyed by christians calling it the work of the devil. We just need to look in our past to see how sneaky christianity works sometimes. First they acted all friendly, and where allowed by our ancestors to live their believe and to evangelize/missionize. As soon as the church was strong enough the friendly times where over. Now they took over, and forced people to convert, and started wars with the neighbors to spread their believe. Just think about how many people where tortured and murdered in the name of Yahwe ? It is so many you can´t even count them any longer !!! So how dare they call our religion/our gods evil ??? They are the evil ones, the church history clearly shows that. If they could they would still act like that. But atm they are not powerful enough, so they act all friendly and open again, to regain their power. But this time we know the act, and won´t fall for it again, at least i hope so !!!
    There won't be humans in 500 years. Enough people choke themselves when they jerk off we gave it a name. We ain't a species made to last.

    Judging by it´s name common sense must once have been a pretty common thing. When and why did that change, so it became the rare treasure it is today???

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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Demons for one people may well be the gods of another and vice versa. For the people who consider them gods this is and should be irrelevant what others say. Ing is spot on on that. The gods are our gods and end of story. What does it matter for us what others think about them? It's not our problem. Our problem is to keep those people out of our cultures and countries so that we also dont have to care about their opinion.




    Primus, human sacrifice is highly ritualised and absolutely central in christian masses. They drink the blood of Jebus every sunday and they eat the flesh of Jebus every sunday. They believe that the wine and bread actually become the blood and the flesh during the mass. To eat the flesh and drink the blood of another human is a highly Satanic ritual in order to ingest the powers of that human. We find this practice in purer form in more primitive, tribal cultures like the Maori or some African tribes when one tribe triumphs over another in ritualised cannibalism, ie the chieftain of the subdued tribe is eaten by those who won in order to ingest his power. To eat one's own "god" though is quite unique and may well be the reason for some of the schizophrenic beliefs maintained within the christian cult. Also jewish cult for that matter. Not that there's much of a difference anyway.
    If I recall correctly, the gods of the Vedic people became the demons of the Zoroastrians.

    This demonisation of other gods is not only a waste of time, it is dangerous, since this gives real demons--as in the unseen, yet malevolent entities--the opportunity to continue engaging in their destructive behavior.

    Frankly, I think we should stop refering to these entities as "demons", since the word itself originally denotes benevolent spirits who live between humans and deities. Does not the very word itself have its origins in the same word that translates into the names of Aryan gods such as Zeus, Jupiter, Tyr, and Dyaus Pitar?
    "So long as you are a slave to the opinions of the many you have not yet approached freedom or tasted its nectar."
    -Emperor Julian the Apostate

  8. #48
    Eala Freia Fresena
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    Tell the Christian he is a Slave defending his master and you do not discuss spiritual things with slaves, you only talk to Freeman about this subject.

    also Jewish belief systems are for Jews, not for Germanic people.

    compare them to Bhuddists who would never start a discussion or accusation like that. No other religion is doing that, only the Jewish founded religions are doing so.

    tell them that Jews are widely known as Liars and Deceivers. to believe in a religion coming from that source is dumbness or naivety at best.

    ask them what Jesus and his demon have done for Germanic people, beside murder and destroying their healthy way of live, bringing them into serfdom to a foreign people.

    Christianity has nothing to do with freedom but destroys it, the best example is the bloke who wants to discuss our religion. Tell him that he is following a murderous religion which causes trouble and stirs wars wherever it sets it's foot on. and that while officially promoting peace. that is the same what your Christian discusser tries to do with you.

    The prince of peace is an extraordinary killer.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheStormer View Post
    If I recall correctly, the gods of the Vedic people became the demons of the Zoroastrians.

    This demonisation of other gods is not only a waste of time, it is dangerous, since this gives real demons--as in the unseen, yet malevolent entities--the opportunity to continue engaging in their destructive behavior.

    Frankly, I think we should stop refering to these entities as "demons", since the word itself originally denotes benevolent spirits who live between humans and deities. Does not the very word itself have its origins in the same word that translates into the names of Aryan gods such as Zeus, Jupiter, Tyr, and Dyaus Pitar? [My boldface: Ingvaeonic]
    Good point. Daemon thence demon came from the Greek word signifying godly power or animating spirit. Perhaps a better word to use meaning evil and malevolent spirit is "devil", also derived from a Greek word meaning "slanderer" or "accuser". In my experience, slanderers are the very essence of evil: the more one slanders the more evil is one.
    Between the devil and the deep blue sea.

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    What are the demons, in comparative religion? Just undesirable gods or angels - if their attributes are negative (to you) they are demonic. who are the demons in the Norse worldview - the Rokkr, the Jotunns? The nearest thing would surely be any of the beings that oppose the Aesir and men. Christianity has universal scope so all other gods are demonised - there is even a parallel tendency, in early Buddhism, to denounce autochthonous practices as Nagaism. Again Buddhism has universal pretentions. But in Abrahamic faiths the tendency is most developed. So the strength of anyone's conviction that other gods are demonic comes from their devotion to Christianity - a strong Christian cannot be tolerant on religious matters.

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