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Thread: How Germanic Are the Croats?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Todesritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    ...

    However, I find the argument from various Balkan nationalists that they are "pure Goth descendants" to be rather absurd (I've heard this from Muslim Bosnians on the internet as well). Most of their genetic stock is native to the Balkans, which is why the South Slavs are predominantly Dinarid and don't visually resemble Poles or Russians.
    Yes, precisely. The Balkans population is a mixed grab-bag of genealogical elements, most of which predate modern language distribution, and arguably some of which might even predate Indo-Aryan/-European language introduction.

    Imagine if hypothetically we were talking about the Basques, and they had assimilated to the new dominant language several times, and as a population interbred with the newcomers to lesser or greater degrees, so that their geological heritage was +/-70% the original pre-Indo-Aryan. It would not make much sense if some of their nationalists in such a case tried to claim the population *as a whole* were 'Pure Gauls / Celt-Iberians', 'Pure Romans', 'Pure Visigoths' or 'Pure Franks' in this hypothetical situation where the present day Basque population had lost their original language, and picked arbitrary recent conquering peoples as their ancestors.

    The claim they are 'Pure Slavs', many of these Balkan people may make is equally problematic, if they billed themselves as an 80% Dacio-Thracian with Gepid, Slav, Magyar, & Illyrian admixture speaking a South-Slavic language however I might be less prone to rolling my eyes.

  2. #12
    New Member Sonnenheim's Avatar
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    Maybe I could help a little. I live in Croatia, and though I come from Volksdeutsch family, I can say a few things both as a citizen of Croatia and an archaeologist.

    I think this topic is named rather inappropriate, it'd be better to ask how Slavic are the Croats? The so-called South Slavs indeed are least Slavic, but how and why depends from nation to nation. When you simple compare a few i.e. Croats and Serbs, the differences are obvious and they these people not be viewed as one. The Serbs are way darker (even with lots of Turkish characteristics) and only small amount of Croats share their characteristics, because Croats aren't predominantly Dinarid - it is the case mostly in Dalmatia (south coast region and especially its hinterland).
    Continental Croats often have at least one German or Austrian ancestor, even Volksdeutscher population still exists in spite of being almost totally annihilated in communistic Yugoslavia after the WWII. My family survived and many others did, fortunately.

    One need to think about Croatian history, namely Austria-Hungary empire and the Early Middle Ages (Goths, Langobards, Francs, Gepids, later Normans and a bunch of others). A long time ago I've noticed that the people who are not familiar with Croatian don't have the right idea of how do the Croats and their culture look like. In my opinion, one of the reasons are large numbers of Bosnians that are now mixed with many Croats and these people generally look like "typical Croats" in the eye of a foreigner. Spend a few days in Croatia and you will notice all the ethnic differences easily.

    So, to conclude, a few photos of less or more famous Croats, just to see the variety. You'll notice what I'm talking about. Then compare it to some Serbs and Bulgarians... South Slavs? Oh, please!


    Jelena Veljaca, actress


    Mirjana Lucic, tennis player


    Ana Vilenica, actress


    Bojana Gregoric, actress


    Goran Visnjic, actor


    Jasmin Stavros, singer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post


    Czechs are Western Slavs. Croats and Serbs are both Southern Slavs.
    Croats consider themselves (and are) a unique mix of Slavic, Germanic and Illyric (Romans) races.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=


    Quote Originally Posted by Adolf Hitler
    "If the Croats were part of the Reich, we'd have them serving as faithful auxiliaries of the German leader, to police our marches. Whatever happens, one shouldn't treat them as Italy is doing at present. The Croats are a proud people. They should be bound directly to the leader by an oath of loyalty. Like that, one could rely upon them absolutely. When I have Kvaternik standing in front of me, I behold the very type of the Croat as I've always known him, unshakeable in his friendships, a man whose oath is eternally binding. The Croats are very keen on not being regarded as Slavs."
    The Croats are an ally of the German people since 800 years. There was never a war between our people, which makes Croatia unique because it's the only Ally that is that long-standing and loyal. No German shall ever badmouth the Croatians.

    Hitler knows this of course, and also knows that it was Croatian troops that saved the Hapsburg monarchy in the 1849/50 revolt when even the Germans largely supported the up-rise against the Emperor in Vienna.

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    Mein Glaube ist die Liebe zu meinem Volk. Juthunge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCP3 View Post
    Croats consider themselves (and are) a unique mix of Slavic, Germanic and Illyric (Romans) races.

    The Croats are an ally of the German people since 800 years. There was never a war between our people, which makes Croatia unique because it's the only Ally that is that long-standing and loyal. No German shall ever badmouth the Croatians.

    Hitler knows this of course, and also knows that it was Croatian troops that saved the Hapsburg monarchy in the 1849/50 revolt when even the Germans largely supported the up-rise against the Emperor in Vienna.
    The Croats might have some remote Germanic ancestry, largely from the Migration Period some 1500 years ago, but culturally, linguistically and ethnically they're wholly Slavic and not Germanic.
    Some drops of blood don't change this fact, it takes more than that.

    I don't see in what way it's a good thing when foreign soldiers of the Emperor of a multiethnic state help quelling a revolution by Germans who seek to establish a united Germany.
    But I guess it might just be if you're a White Nationalist.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Sigyn's Avatar
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    I think Storm Saxon's question has been answered, since this thread has safely debunked Hitler's bizarre comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Todesritter View Post
    The claim they are 'Pure Slavs', many of these Balkan people may make is equally problematic, if they billed themselves as an 80% Dacio-Thracian with Gepid, Slav, Magyar, & Illyrian admixture speaking a South-Slavic language however I might be less prone to rolling my eyes.
    Indeed. However, at this point, "Slavic" is just an ethno-cultural group, for all intents and purposes. A Serb is just as Slavic as a Belarussian, even though their physiognomy can be very different. Genetically, the South Slavic people are predominantly Balkan natives (hence, the Dinarid race being so common among them), with added Illyrian, Slavic and Germanic admixture. However, genes are not the only thing that decide what your ethnicity is, and due their language and culture, the Serbs and Croats still fall into the "South Slavic" category.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnenheim View Post
    When you simple compare a few i.e. Croats and Serbs, the differences are obvious and they these people not be viewed as one.
    Interesting. My own impression of Serb and Croat immigrants is that they often look alike, with the Dinarid racial type being common in both (maybe more so in the Serbs). Probably the Croats are fairer, due to their closeness to Austria and their lack of Turkish admixture, but it's not something that one immediately notices. They're not predominantly blond, either. If one lined up a Croat, a Serb, and a Swede, the last one would be the "odd man out".

    You're probably more knowledgeable on this subject than me, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by MCP3 View Post
    Hitler knows this of course, and also knows that it was Croatian troops that saved the Hapsburg monarchy in the 1849/50 revolt when even the Germans largely supported the up-rise against the Emperor in Vienna.
    Is that a good thing? As an ethnic nationalist, I don't have any warm feelings for the multi-cultural Hapsburg Empire, so I don't see why it's an admirable deed when a German uprising is crushed by Balkan mercenaries.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    That genetic map only shows one Y-DNA strain, and not the entire extent of genetic relationships. I don't doubt that the Balkans have absorbed some Gothic genes, but if one took your map as the entire truth, that would mean I'm more closely related to Croats than to Dutch and Germans.
    I never intended it to be 'the entire truth'. Nevertheless, 40 % in Scandinavia and 50 % in Croatia of the same y-dna haplogroup, does imply a fairly substantial genetic relationship. What these respectively 40 and 50 percents are mixed with, however, are likely not commonly shared between us.
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    Mein Glaube ist die Liebe zu meinem Volk. Juthunge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    I never intended it to be 'the entire truth'. Nevertheless, 40 % in Scandinavia and 50 % in Croatia of the same y-dna haplogroup, does imply a fairly substantial genetic relationship. What these respectively 40 and 50 percents are mixed with, however, are likely not commonly shared between us.
    The predominant I haplogroup in Scandinavia is I1 whereas the one predominant in the Balkans is I2.
    These two are vastly different and their distribution in the Balkans has little to do with Germanic migrations, it vastly predates it.

    I1:

    Haplogroup I-M253 (M253, M307, P30, P40) displays a very clear frequency gradient, with a peak frequency of approximately 35% among the populations of southern Norway, southwestern Sweden, and Denmark, and rapidly decreasing frequencies toward the edges of the historically Germanic-influenced world. A notable exception is Finland, where frequency in West Finns is up to 40%, and in certain provinces like Satakunta more than 50%.

    Outside Fennoscandia, distribution of Haplogroup I-M253 is closely correlated with that of Haplogroup I-M436; but among Scandinavians (including both Germanic and Uralic peoples of the region) nearly all the Haplogroup I Y-chromosomes are I-M253. Another characteristic of the Scandinavian I-M253 Y-chromosomes is their rather low haplotype diversity (STR diversity): a greater variety of Haplogroup I-M253 Y-chromosomes has been found among the French and Italians, despite the much lower overall frequency of Haplogroup I-M253 among the modern French and Italian populations.
    I2:

    Haplogroup I-M423 is the most frequent Y-chromosome Haplogroup I in Central and Eastern European populations, reaching its peak in the Western Balkans, most notably in Dalmatia (50-60%[1]) and Bosnia-Herzegovina (up to 71%,[17] avg. 40-50%[1]). A greater variance of this group has been found in Ireland and Great Britain, but overall frequency is very low (2-3%). Haplogroup I-M423 is virtually absent in Fennoscandia, Western and Southwestern Europe.
    Distribution of I as a whole(pay attention to the different subclades):


    We clearly see at least two different centres from where the two different I subclades spread out, any connection between them is very remote and ancient.
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    Senior Member Alfadur's Avatar
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    I agree with what has been said above. The Croats, like their Balkan neighbors, are predominantly of native Balkan genetic stock, with additional admixture from Thracians, Ostrogoths and Old Slavs (who gave them their language, among other things). They also interbred with the nearby Austrians, but to a lesser extent than the Slovenians did. One could say that Croats form a genetic continuum between Slovenians and Serbs.

    Hitler was no racial expert, and his praise of the Croats is probably due to their traditional iron loyalty to Germany. As a result of being the easternmost Catholic people, the Croats have an intense rivalry with the Serbs (who are the largest tribe in the area). This history has led the Croats being more "westernized" and adopting the group survival strategy of aligning with the nearest West European powers at every opportunity, whether it's the Austrian Empire, the Third Reich, or the EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnenheim View Post
    So, to conclude, a few photos of less or more famous Croats, just to see the variety. You'll notice what I'm talking about. Then compare it to some Serbs and Bulgarians... South Slavs? Oh, please!
    I've had enough experience with both Serbs and Croats to make a judgement about their racial types. As has been said before, the dark-haired, large-nosed Dinarid type is very common in both of them (this racial type extends all the way into Northern Italy and Austria). The Croats, Serbs and Bosnians frequently overlap with each other, although the latter two sometimes have darker features and higher Turkish admixture due to the occupation. However, on average, these three can be said to belong to the same racial group. The Slovenians (who are essentially Germano-Slavic) are noticeably fairer than the Yugoslav trio, and should not be labeled "Balkan people". It seems that Southeastern Europe has a much higher amount of fair features than Southwestern Europe.

    But their relative blondness shouldn't be overstated. Going by your cherry-picked photos of celebrities, one would reach the conclusion that most Croats look just like Scandinavians.

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    New Member Sonnenheim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    Interesting. My own impression of Serb and Croat immigrants is that they often look alike, with the Dinarid racial type being common in both (maybe more so in the Serbs). Probably the Croats are fairer, due to their closeness to Austria and their lack of Turkish admixture, but it's not something that one immediately notices. They're not predominantly blond, either. If one lined up a Croat, a Serb, and a Swede, the last one would be the "odd man out".

    You're probably more knowledgeable on this subject than me, though.
    You said it well, but when you live here as I do and you look fairly different compared to most people, you notice those differences easily.

    I'll repeat, and I think it is of essential importance here, that there is a huge difference between Croats who live in coastal region (Dalmatia and surrounding areas) and continental ones.

    I live in Agram (Zagreb), the capital, and the people around me are not very similar to Dalmatians, though you have to know that many of them come to Agram. You can easily differentiate them from local people from Agram and other parts of Northwestern Croatia for being typical or even pure Dinarid type. Notice how close this area is to Slovenia, as this fact made a great impact on phenotype here.

    I'm originally from Eastern part of country, near Esseg (Osijek), the area that had a large Volksdeutsche community before the WWII. Though one can say that this area is close to Bosnia and Serbia, it affects Esseg only because of immigrants. The natives are often fairer, just like in Agram and NW Croatia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alfadur View Post
    I've had enough experience with both Serbs and Croats to make a judgement about their racial types. As has been said before, the dark-haired, large-nosed Dinarid type is very common in both of them (this racial type extends all the way into Northern Italy and Austria). The Croats, Serbs and Bosnians frequently overlap with each other, although the latter two sometimes have darker features and higher Turkish admixture due to the occupation. However, on average, these three can be said to belong to the same racial group. The Slovenians (who are essentially Germano-Slavic) are noticeably fairer than the Yugoslav trio, and should not be labeled "Balkan people". It seems that Southeastern Europe has a much higher amount of fair features than Southwestern Europe.

    But their relative blondness shouldn't be overstated. Going by your cherry-picked photos of celebrities, one would reach the conclusion that most Croats look just like Scandinavians.
    I live in Croatia, so I do have a little more experience with both of them

    What I wanted to do with my posts is to say some things that you probably don't and can't see if you don't live here. As I already said, NW Croats have much more in common with Slovenians than Dinarids from coastal region, and same goes to Eastern Croatia. I think that the photos above illustrate it well, just look at the last two man, they are both from the coast. On the other side, the first woman was born in Agram.

    I'm not surprised that most people see Croatians as predominantly Dinarid, and this might be one of the reasons - this picture is made upon Croatian immigrant in Germany, Austria etc. What you have to know is that a great part of these people have some Bosnian ancestry, and/or they often come form coastal regions. I think this explains a lot.

    Furthermore, I have to say that Bosnians are, hmm, a kind of problem in Croatia. They come in large numbers and people have a lot of prejudices against them, not only because their customs are fairly different, but also because of their appearance (!). So, you see, Croats can easily say if you are Croatian, Bosnian of a mixture, but I can understand it is not that easy for other people. And, to be honest, I'm pretty freaked out by Bosnian "invasion", and I don't feel very comfortable near Dinarids from the coast - and I'm not the only one.

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    Croats have nothing to do with germanics(except the ones that have German or Austrian ancestors).They are slavic people and most of them are proud with that.They are a people i admire much.And i don`t hate slavs like many here do, aslong they don`t support pan-slavism over germanic people or over Europe in general.
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