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Thread: Were We Stronger when We Were Pagan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Germania Magna View Post
    Also, bear in mind that "christianity" as adopted by Constantine and the Roman establishment isnt the pure, otherworldly, pacifistic, slave religion of Jesus, the martyrs and the catacombs. It had already been given elements of an Aryan or noble religion. The problem for us is that christianity in most people's minds is always liable to be a compromise between the two.
    I'm not sure Jesus was as much of a pacifist as you might imagine, but from the slave prospective I would say sometimes you have to use unconventional means to win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    For me the debate between Christian and pagan seems to serve no purpose. With the political, social, and demographic problems facing all white/European nations, it seems ridiculous to me to spend time bickering over one or the other. Is not infighting a foolish act to partake in considering our collective circumstances?

    But herein lines the main problem with neo-pagans, especially of the right-wing or racialist sort. A large portion of them, as can be seen by posts on this forum and others, have an intense dislike or even downright hatred of Christians and Christianity. Is this not counter-productive when there are as many if not more nationalists who are Christian rather than pagan?
    The main problem with neo-christians is that they do not see that the state of the European peoples (to include their ex-patriates) stems directly from their ideas of there being no differences between peoples, rushing to not only embrace, but live amongst, and bring home those very foreigners who would see us destroyed.

    [QUOTE=Plantagenet;1169710]We come from a Christian heritage. Look at your own family, in all likelihood at least your grandparents/great grandparents were Christian, and so it was for the majority of European people prior to the modern era. This makes neo-pagans a splinter group, a criticizer of other members of his tribe and their history, and it seems especially bad when their allies in the attack on Christianity are none other than our collective adversaries. Now, if one truly believes spiritually in neo-paganism, why should the added baggage of Christian hatred come into it?[quote]
    We come from a heathen heritage. Look at your own family, they were heathens before being Christians, and so was all of Europe prior to the Christian era. This makes Christians betrayers of their blood and cultures, and is especially bad when they are the ones who welcomed our collective adversaries in with open arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    I think I should point out that there is no inherent incompatibility between Christianity and a warrior ethos, or the ability to defend or strengthen one's folk.
    Yes the incompatibility only arises if one actually follows that New Testament thing. You know, the thing that DEFINES Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    We can see this by the incomparable success of Christian Europe during the past 1000 years, and also by the existence of men like Richard Wagner, who was a lover of the pagan past, a German nationalist, and a defender of Christianity.
    OR, it's due to the increases in population allowing a larger percentage to do something other than provide for mere physical survival, which would explain why technology and though has progressed faster in the last 50n years than the previous 1000 combined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    Finally, any errors one can find in modern Christianity, such as a tendency to emulate the Marxist/egalitarian/leftist secular society, should not be a call for the removal of Christianity altogether but rather its repair or restoration to traditional Christianity.
    Traditional Christianity on:
    Egalitarianism: 1 Corinthians 7:4 "The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does."
    (Spouses being in authority of one over the other -- loss of self, equal authority)

    Equality of peoples: Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

    Warrior ethos: Matthew 5:44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you"

    Luke 6:29 "To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either."

    Luke 6:30 "Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back."

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Germania Magna View Post
    As to values, thats an interesting subject. What is the point of values in your opinion? What is the foundation of values? Are values aimed at evolutionary success or what? Why are plunder and military success not good in your opinion? What about conquering and governing in our own interests like the Danes, are those good values in your opinion? Is the will to power not progressive? I should point out that I am an atheist and I dont really have any preconceptions about values. Imo values are aimed at success, there is nothing virtuous about failure. In that respect I profoundly disagree with the christian Sermon on the Mount. Nor do I assume that one tribe or race has to worry about the well-being of another. I am not an humanitarian, although there is obviously a place for ingroup solidarity. I certainly dont believe in universal human "rights" and I consider them a fiction of recent origin. I think that the Germanic heathens present a healthy attitude to life, conquering, ruling and plundering. The nationalist movements will have to accomplish something similar if we are to survive as a people; we will have to reconquer our lands and run them in our own interests and without much regard for the well-being of other races. The whole subject of values is extremely important and it should be considered sincerely and honestly.
    Values exist to inculcate good or ethical behavior within the individual. This is the basis for all higher human living and higher human culture; one more less is incapable of being divided from the other. The foundation of values comes, in part, from the realization that one is not a brute or a beast and that to act like a brute or a beast is to act as the antithesis of one who is properly a human being. About plunder, lust of plunder is to place value on material goods, which are intrinsically worthless and indifferent things at best, and military success comes from simply following orders and carrying out one's duty (if a soldier or warrior).

    Consider: Does possession of plunder make you a better individual? No, it merely means that you're a good plunderer. Does skill in battle make you a better individual? No, it merely means that you have skill in battle ("war-luck").

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    Christianity offers control to the people in power. Rome used it to consolidate power. But in 2000 years it has not eradicated paganism.

    Paganism offers individual/tribal freedom of worship. It will still be here long after Christianity has fallen from power and become just another idol worshiping religion.


    Any people are stronger united under one leader, unless he fails.
    "Do not confuse "duty" with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different. Duty is a debt you owe to yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily. Paying that debt can entail anything from years of patient work to instant willingness to die. Difficult it may be, but the reward is self-respect."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    About plunder, lust of plunder is to place value on material goods, which are intrinsically worthless and indifferent things at best, and military success comes from simply following orders and carrying out one's duty (if a soldier or warrior).

    C.
    Armies that simply follow orders are sure to fail. Orders were given hours or days earlier.

    Allowing troops to harvest wealth while on the war path paid their wages without excessively taxing their people. Leaders that can manage the warriors after their wages have been paid are the men who win wars. Controlling infighting, transporting goods, storage.

    Even today countries harvest the wealth of their defeated opponents.
    "Do not confuse "duty" with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different. Duty is a debt you owe to yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily. Paying that debt can entail anything from years of patient work to instant willingness to die. Difficult it may be, but the reward is self-respect."

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Values exist to inculcate good or ethical behavior within the individual. This is the basis for all higher human living and higher human culture; one more less is incapable of being divided from the other. The foundation of values comes, in part, from the realization that one is not a brute or a beast and that to act like a brute or a beast is to act as the antithesis of one who is properly a human being. About plunder, lust of plunder is to place value on material goods, which are intrinsically worthless and indifferent things at best, and military success comes from simply following orders and carrying out one's duty (if a soldier or warrior).

    Consider: Does possession of plunder make you a better individual? No, it merely means that you're a good plunderer. Does skill in battle make you a better individual? No, it merely means that you have skill in battle ("war-luck").
    I think thats gibberish. You havent defined "good and ethical behaviour" nor have you said what the basis of "good" is. You need to define your terms and to prove that there is any reality to what you are saying and that it isnt just meaningless words. We have to understand the world the way that it really is. I have proposed that "success" is the basis of "virtue" and I would have thought that to be self-evident. In fact it is what the word "virtue" means, it means ability and power, efficacy. There is nothing otherworldly about it at all. We are animals and we are subject to all the same laws of Nature as other animals. We either succeed or we fail in this world. Virtue is aimed at success and success alone makes possible all the higher culture of our race and all personal cultural refinement. Success comes first, everything else comes after. Germanic "virtue" means whatever behaviour advances the cause of Germanic survival and prosperity. Whatever is good for our race is good. We as a race have to survive and prosper, just like the Germanic tribes of old. We need to reconquer our lands, to remove aliens and to run our lands for the good of our race and without consideration for the well-being of aliens. Sorry if that doesnt fit your definition of "good" but that is how it is. That is how the world works and any "virtue" that doesnt fit with how the world works is not virtue but vice and self-indulgence. Nature will punish weakness with ruin and extinction. Its not about being "saints", its about being successful human animals so that we can develop our potential to the full.

    And yes I do think that plunder is virtuous. If our race needs land, food and resources then we should take them. No one has a divine "right" to keep resources that we need just because they got hold of them first. Would it have been better in your opinion if the Germanic tribes had remained confined to southern Scandinavia and we had left the continent to Celts, Slavs and Latins? Because they got there first? Then the English, German and Dutch nations would never have existed. Would it be better if we had never existed? Weakness and non-existence are not "good", they are evil. This world is based on the survival of the fittest and our aim is to be fit, to survive and to prosper. Whatever contributes to the welfare of our race is good and whatever weakens us is evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Germania Magna View Post
    And yes I do think...
    And if you actually do believe all that you bespoke I can imagine that you spend a great deal of time lamenting about things that you don't have, such as gewgaws, baubles, land, and so on? Social Darwinism is indeed a most excellent existential path to follow- assuming one has preposterously low expectations of and beliefs about mankind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olav View Post
    Can you honestly blame Heathens, though? Christianity was and is the cause of many great evils in the world. When Christianity first spread to our lands our people were given the choice to abandon their native beliefs; the beliefs of our culture, our heritage and our forefathers for some mumbo-jumbo desert god whom supposedly loves you, but if you don't believe in him.. you're cast into enternal fire. If you were not willing to convert, you would be put to death on the spot. A more modern day example is the mass immigration problem we're facing that threatens our very existence as Germanics..
    See the main thing is, aside from the Saxons and some of the Scandinavians, the vast majority of Germanic converts did so on their own free will. The two primary means by which they converted was their king converting and his retainers following suit, or through the great missionary effort of the Irish and Anglo-Saxon missionaries during the 8th, 9th, and 10th centuries.

    So this was a ideology our people willingly converted to, and remained an ingrained part of our culture thenceforward. You don't see Japanese or Koreans having a hatred against Buddhism despite it being foreign, rather they accept it as part of their history/culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olav View Post
    I highly doubt we would be in the mess we're in today if Christianity never found its way into our lands.
    To understand the mess we are in today, we must understand the historical roots of our predicament. If you study this in depth, you can see that cultural Marxism is the primary poison, which developed from Marxism, which developed from the Enlightenment era thought and out of the Enlightenment era emancipation of Jews. Therefore we can see that the historical root causes of our problems lie in secular movements against Christianity in the late 18th and 19th centuries.

    Is it not fascinating that this very moment is the most secular and least Christian our people have been in the past 1000 years, and it is also the lowest and most wretched condition we've been in the past 1000 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olav View Post
    Christianity was and is still hostile to all the things your average Heathen holds dear; ancestors, heritage, ancestral lands and culture. Also, for the record, the majority of Christians I've seen are far more hostile towards Heathens than we are to them.
    Again, I point you to the example of Richard Wagner and countless Germanics like him who held their heritage, land, and culture dear, and yet were Christians. Secondly, I don't think most Christians care about heathens, but it seems from everything I've observed that a hostility toward Christianity is an ingrained part of the racialist neo-pagan world view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olav View Post
    Actually, no, it's not as simple as that. Our untainted heritage is Heathenism / Paganism or whichever term you'd prefer to use. Christianity was an alien concept that was forced upon our people by so called Saints and their followers. However, it’s sadly still a part of our heritage now, but you shouldn't confuse it with being our traditional heritage.
    Probably all of your traceable ancestors back to the early Middle Ages will be Christian, not heathen. This goes for nearly all of Europe (except the Balts and some others.) Christianity is undeniably part of our traditional heritage; the last 1000-1800 years of European history shows this. It is also worth noting that, aside from the pagans of Classical Greece/Rome, nearly all of the major figures of Western history have been Christians, not pagans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    See the main thing is, aside from the Saxons and some of the Scandinavians, the vast majority of Germanic converts did so on their own free will. The two primary means by which they converted was their king converting and his retainers following suit, or through the great missionary effort of the Irish and Anglo-Saxon missionaries during the 8th, 9th, and 10th centuries.

    I think by the time Christianity had hit places like Scandinavia, it was less a religion and more a political bargaining chip. Those in the Roman Period often had to pay with their lives, so conversion was not a matter of politics.

    I still do not understand why Swedes have a "Church Tax" though?

    That seems way out of line to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Values exist to inculcate good or ethical behavior within the individual. This is the basis for all higher human living and higher human culture; one more less is incapable of being divided from the other. The foundation of values comes, in part, from the realization that one is not a brute or a beast and that to act like a brute or a beast is to act as the antithesis of one who is properly a human being. About plunder, lust of plunder is to place value on material goods, which are intrinsically worthless and indifferent things at best, and military success comes from simply following orders and carrying out one's duty (if a soldier or warrior).

    Consider: Does possession of plunder make you a better individual? No, it merely means that you're a good plunderer. Does skill in battle make you a better individual? No, it merely means that you have skill in battle ("war-luck").
    What is the value of being a better individual and what purpose does it serve?

    Quote Originally Posted by Germania Magna View Post
    This world is based on the survival of the fittest and our aim is to be fit, to survive and to prosper. Whatever contributes to the welfare of our race is good and whatever weakens us is evil.
    Why the race? Why not the community or the family or just the individual himself? If the aim is to be fit, why should we not see in all men only a means to personal gain and satisfaction. Surly if this is the case, all men have no duties but to the fulfillment of their wants. Let every man universally declare:

    "Success is what I deem makes me strong and failure what makes me weak and any reverence to a collective like race is a shared power and only a fool shares power. Therefore all are either enemies or means. Whether fate has placed you upon the same rock and beneath the same rag matters only to me so far as your use. For I acknowledge the truth that a brother is only a competitor and these I call enemies. You are either an enemy or a means depending whether you be man or womb. My highest aim is to reproduce myself and in this no boundaries shall hinder me. My security and death exists only after my enemies are defeated, perpetual war therefore to me is life. I am satisfied only when my seed has overflowed in my enemies women. I have neither allegiance to family, nor to community, nor to state nation or creed but to one law only- growth. To kill, to fuck and to eat, what limits any of these is evil and what increases them is good".

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