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Thread: German Sympathy for the Japanese of WW2

  1. #51
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    I really don't think China was in any position to fight against the USSR because of the war it was fighting against Japan, I think they would try and stay out of it if they possibly could.


    The Chinese were also receiving significant amounts of aid from the Allied powers, and aligning with Germany would have cut them off from this, while Germany wouldn't really have been able to supply any aid. The best situation for Germany would have been peace in China and I believe Germany tried to help achieve that without success. In that situation either Japan or China may have been in a position to attack the Soviets. Without peace in China, I think allying with Japan was Germany's only option.

  2. #52
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    China was having a civil war and could not have attacked the Soviet Union. And the japanese had been making war on them for years before 1939. From China we had nothing to hope for or to fear. At least with the japs, we were able to divide the war efforts of the US
    Das Recht und die Gerechtigkeit haben nur selten miteinander etwas zu tun. Höchstens machen sie winki winki wenn sie aneinander vorbei gehen.
    The Law and Justice have only seldom anything to do with one another. At the most they wave at each other when they pass one another on the street.
    Niemals vergessen. Niemals vergeben.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I don't know what Hitler's overall opinions of the Chinese were but, given the size and abundant resources of China and its huge population, passing off China in favor of the japs may've cost the Germans the war.
    China was a worthless strategic ally. It was a formless chaos, torn apart by a civil war. At that time in history, the Middle Kingdom was at its historically lowest point: a corrupt banana republic and largely Third World nation run by a kleptocracy. Imperial Japan was none of these. The Chinese government troops were obsolete and under-equipped, lagged behind in technology, had very low morale, and were no match against a modern Westernized army. Because of the raging civil war at home, they wouldn't either have the ability to project their force abroad.

    Germany's greatest strength was its military power on land. To complement the Axis alliance, they needed a partner with a naval empire and military power at sea. Ideally, Hitler wanted the British Empire to be this seaborne ally, but the Japanese were a good second choice. From the perspective of a German officer at the time, the alliance with Japan was a no-brainer.

    Also, the nationalist Chinese fighting both Mao and the Japanese, while also defeating the Red Army, the best land army second only to the Wehrmacht? Don't make me laugh.

    As an aside for the above post, Chaing Kai-shek was also very westernized and was a convert to Protestant Christianity. Iirc, after the Germans decided to stop supporting the Chinese nationalists they largely turned to the U.S.
    Chiang Kai-Shek was possibly the worst leader that wartime China ever had. He was a kleptocrat, corrupt to the core, and an incompetent military leader who lost his entire country to the communist rebels. His regime was rife with corruption and utter chaos. He conveniently became "Westernized" whenever the political winds changed, to keep the US aid flowing. Sun Yat-Sen's dream became a nightmarish banana republic that all the Allied support in the world could not keep together, and the failed GMD regime finally shattered when Chiang escaped to Taiwan (where he finally learned his lesson and ran an efficient authoritarian state).

    U.S. support was largely self-serving in the war, i.e. Ho Chih Minh was a U.S. ally against the japs in SE Asia in the war and he was practically begging the U.S. for an alliance when he took Vietnam over after chucking the French out in the 1950s. What'd the State Department do? Placate the French and go fight Ho Chih Min and the gooks
    Cold War politics was the main reason for the US turning against the Viet Minh in the first place. Originally, the US were supporting the Vietnamese communists against the Japanese, and Roosevelt was staunchly anti-colonialist. (IIRC, Roosevelt planned to dismantle the French and British colonial empires, but those plans died with him). However, the beginning of the Cold War changed the whole game. The Viet Minh were originally pro-American and opposed the French, but the Cold War resulted in France and the US being on the same side. That's geopolitics for you.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autosomal Viking View Post
    You made me want to apologize to you because we are not enemies and this event is unfortunate. But if you read back to your second or so post, you took a cheap shot at me. What would you expect in return?

    ...

    I want to amend this relationship because the last thing I want to do is be a disappointment. Please accept my apologies.
    Accepted of course, no worries...

    I apologize for having provoked you, & hope you get to feeling less stressed.

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    I would take the japanese as allies over the chinese every single time !
    The reason is simple, while they are not as noble a race as germanics, they come much closer then any other asian nation ! In my opinion they are the best of the non white races !
    As a race and as a people they show many of the traits that made us germanics superior over others, even if those traits are not as strong in them as they are in us. They are hard working, ambitious, good teamplayers but also still good on their own if necessary, extremely loyal to their superiors and to their people, ready to accept a subordinate role when the cause requires it, have a strong warrior ethos (look into the samurai education and philosophy for examples), many would rather die then loose, they are brave, ready to make sacrifices (even their own lives if necessary), they see themselves as less important then the cause and their people etc.etc.
    But even in smaller things they have a lot in common with us, like recognizing the importance of being punctual(the japanese railway is considered the most punctual in the world, being 5 minutes too late is already considered unacceptable, yet they are also one of the safest railways in the world)

    All those are traits that made them the ideal ally for us. You don´t have to first teach them all these things (as far as you even can teach them), like you would have to the chinese. If we would have to get the chinese on the level of the japanese the war would have been over before we had them even halfway There is a reason the japanese conquered so much of china and a lot of the rest of asia, and could only be stopped by a huge alliance, just like us !
    There won't be humans in 500 years. Enough people choke themselves when they jerk off we gave it a name. We ain't a species made to last.

    Judging by it´s name common sense must once have been a pretty common thing. When and why did that change, so it became the rare treasure it is today???

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I don't know what Hitler's overall opinions of the Chinese were but, given the size and abundant resources of China and its huge population, passing off China in favor of the japs may've cost the Germans the war. i.e. the Russians having to fight a war in Eurasia with the Chinese, while the Germans are invading from Eastern Europe would spell the doom for the reds and make the western Allies (U.S. and U.K.) face a more formidable Wermacht in Western Europe. Hypothetical, but likely (and fodder for fiction afficianados).

    The excessive praise the japs get is because, by and large, they've always fascinated the west more than the Chinese. But, in an objective side-by-side comparison, the Chinese pretty much dwarf the japs in terms of overall accomplishments. Japan was merely a younger, more vigorous country that properly westernized whereas China had long since stagnated by the end of its imperial era.

    No less an observer than Napoleon observed that if China ever got its act together it'd be a major world power. Hitler gambled on the japs, who were the more obvious first choice, but the long-term investment probably would've been on the nationalistic chinamen.
    I think that you forget about Mao and the Communists. China was a nation in civil war; the Japanese invasion only led to a slight pause in that conflict. With that internal conflict, how much military power could the Chinese have projected without foreign military and economic support? Force projection would have been essential in an ally from a German perspective, they needed an ally that would be a formidable threat even if ignored. From a Soviet perspective China was a non-threat, it could only have hurt them if they themselves had gone there. And why would they do that? They would just have taken on Germany, alone, first, and the turned their attentions south-east.

    Remember that in a conflict, allied to Germany, China would have stood a-l-o-n-e in the world and would only have had its own resources to fall back on. No US Aid, and definitely no Soviet aid. Germany needed an ally there and then, not fifty years in the future, and that left Japan. They had a modern navy, army, and air force, and—most important of all—a domestic arms industry and industrial infrastructure. China had nothing of that.

    The U.S. failed to properly support Chiang and it's for this reason that the Maoists took China over. Then the Kuomintang fled to Taiwan and are pretty much irrelevant now when the party once ruled China.
    The support for Chiang was actively undermined by the very State Department employees that McCarthy later went after, i.e. all the Communists that came in with Roosevelt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Autosomal Viking View Post
    Under the pretense that USA was still my country at that time, right or wrong, the goal was to force the other side into submission.
    A very realistic view to hold. It's not about 'Good and Evil' - such a stupid perspective to have. Typical of immature and irrational people - typical of the Left-wing.

    Its about national integrity. Proving your nation can fight a war, regardless of how it started or what its about.

    This is why most soldiers in the old days and even in recent times respected their enemy and vice versa - both proved a willingness to fight.

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    Swedes founded Russia a long time ago. Those bonds between us got lost perhaps 1000 years ago.

    I like ordinary Russians anyway.

    I suppose modern Germans got same sympathy for Japanese as any people.

    I like the Japanese people a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ampersand View Post
    I really don't think China was in any position to fight against the USSR because of the war it was fighting against Japan, I think they would try and stay out of it if they possibly could.
    I was thinking of a situation in which Japan would be forced to deal with the U.S.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    Remember that in a conflict, allied to Germany, China would have stood a-l-o-n-e in the world and would only have had its own resources to fall back on. No US Aid, and definitely no Soviet aid. Germany needed an ally there and then, not fifty years in the future, and that left Japan. They had a modern navy, army, and air force, and—most important of all—a domestic arms industry and industrial infrastructure. China had nothing of that.
    During the war, and prior to Operation Barbarossa, the Germans wanted Japan to attack the Western colonial powers, as Hitler didn't think he would need Japan to defeat the U.S.S.R. and didn't want to share the expected spoils. It's not Hitler's wishes which made the difference however, the Japanese had their own reasons for doing so. And yet, fun fact incoming, when the Japanese conquered Singapore, Hitler refused to congratulate them with their victory, as he knew well enough what the loss of the Gibraltar of the East meant to Germanics and Germanic dominance of the globe.
    “War is waged by men; not by beasts, or by gods. It is a peculiarly human activity. To call it a crime against mankind is to miss at least half its significance; it is also the punishment of a crime.” - Frederic Manning, The Middle Parts of Fortune

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