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Thread: Pythagoras and the Greco-Roman Theology

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    Pythagoras and the Greco-Roman Theology

    http://www.goddess-athena.org/Encycl...logy/index.htm

    The Greco-Roman theology was first mystically and symbolically promulgated by Orpheus, afterwards disseminated enigmatically through images by Pythagoras, and in the last place scientifically unfolded by Plato and his genuine disciples.

    The peculiarity indeed, of this theology is, that it is no less scientific than sublime; and that by a geometrical series of reasoning originating from the most self-evident truths, it develops all the deified progressions from the ineffable principle of things, and accurately exhibits to our view all the links of that golden chain of which deity is the one extreme, and body the other.

    That also which is most admirable and laudable in this theology is, that it produces in the mind properly prepared for its reception the most pure, holy, venerable, and exalted conceptions of the great cause of all.

    For it celebrates this immense principle as something superior even to being itself; as exempt from the whole of things, of which it is nevertheless ineffably the source, and does not therefore think fit to connumerate it with any triad, or order of beings.

    Indeed, it even apologises for attempting to give an appropriate name to this principle, which is in reality ineffable, and ascribes the attempt to the imbecility of human nature, which striving intently to behold it, gives the appellation of the most simple of its conceptions to that which is beyond all knowledge and all conception.

    Hence it denominates it The One, and The Good; by the former of these names indicating its transcendent simplicity, and by the latter its subsistence as the object of desire to all beings. For all things desire good.

    At the same time however, it asserts that these appellations are in reality nothing more than the parturitions of the soul which standing as it were in the vestibules of the adytum of deity, announce nothing pertaining to the ineffable, but only indicate her spontaneous tendencies towards it, and belong rather to the immediate offspring of the first God, than to the first itself.

    Hence, as the result of this most venerable conception of the supreme, when it ventures not only to denominate the ineffable, but also to assert something of its relation to other things, it considers this as pre-eminently its peculiarity, that it is the principle of principles; it being necessary that the characteristic property of principle, after the same manner as other things, should not begin from multitude, but should be collected into one monad as a summit, and which is the principle of all principles.

    Conformably to this, Proclus, in the second book of The Theology of Plato says, with matchless magnificence of diction:

    Let us as it were celebrate the first God, not as establishing the earth and the heavens, nor as giving subsistence to souls, and the generation of all animals; for he produced these indeed, but among the last of things; but prior to these, let us celebrate him as unfolding into light the whole intelligible and intellectual genus of Gods, together with all the supermundane and mundane divinities - as the God of all Gods, the unity of all unities, and beyond the first adyta [the highest order of intelligibles], - as more ineffable than all silence, and more unknown than all essence, - as holy among the holies, and concealed in the intelligible Gods.

    The scientific reasoning from which this dogma is deduced is the following: As the principle of all things is The One, it is necessary that the progression of beings should be continued, and that no vacuum should intervene either in incorporeal or corporeal natures.

    It is also necessary that every thing which has a natural progression should proceed through similitude.

    In consequence of this, it is likewise necessary that every producing principle should generate a number of the same order with itself, viz. nature, a natural number; soul, one that is psychical (i.e. belonging to soul); and intellect, an intellectual number.

    For if whatever possesses a power of generating, generates similars prior to dissimilars, every cause must deliver its own form and characteristic peculiarity to its progeny; and before it generates that which gives subsistence to progressions far distant and separate from its nature, it must constitute things proximate to itself according to essence, and conjoined with it through similitude.

    It is therefore necessary from these premises, since there is one unity the principle of the universe, that this unity should produce from itself, prior to every thing else, a multitude of natures characterised by unity, and a number the most of all things allied to its cause; and these natures are no other than the Gods.

    According to this theology therefore, from the immense principle of principles, in which all things causally subsist, absorbed in superessential light, and involved in unfathomable depths, a beauteous progeny of principles proceed, all largely partaking of the ineffable, all stamped with the occult characters of deity, all possessing an overflowing fullness of good.

    From these dazzling summits, these ineffable blossoms, these divine propagations, being, life, intellect, soul, nature and body depend; monads suspended from unities, deified natures proceeding from deities.

    Each of these monads too, is the leader of a series which extends from itself to the last of things, and which while it proceeds from, at the same time abides in, and returns to its leader.

    And all these principles and all their progeny are finally centred and rooted by their summits in the first great all-comprehending one.

    Thus all beings proceed from, and are comprehended in the first being; all intellects emanate from one first intellect; all souls from one first soul; all natures blossom from one first nature; and all bodies proceed from the vital and luminous body of the world.

    And lastly, all these great monads are comprehended in the first one, from which both they and all their depending series are unfolded into light.

    Hence this first one is truly the unity of unities, the monad of monads, the principle of principles, the God of Gods, one and all things, and yet one prior to all.

    No objections of any weight, no arguments but such as are sophistical, can be urged against this most sublime theory which is so congenial to the unperverted conceptions of the human mind, that it can only be treated with ridicule and contempt in degraded, barren, and barbarous ages.

    Ignorance and priestcraft, however, have hitherto conspired to defame those inestimable works, in which this and many other grand and important dogmas can alone be found; and the theology of the Greeks has been attacked with all the insane fury of ecclesiastical zeal, and all the imbecil flashes of mistaken wit, by men whose conceptions on the subject, like those of a man between sleeping and waking, have been turbid and wild, phantastic and confused, preposterous and vain.

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    This thread was posted looong after Skadi restricted its focus to Germanic, so why be enthralled by Hellenic mysticism, when Odin supplies all one needs for that purpose?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    This thread was posted looong after Skadi restricted its focus to Germanic, so why be enthralled by Hellenic mysticism, when Odin supplies all one needs for that purpose?
    The Church Fathers borrowed heavily from Plato and regarded the writings of the Platonists to be compatible with their teachings. This is also the case with the Orthodox Church. The fact that so much of Plato's writings remain intact demonstrates it's relevance to Church interests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
    The Church Fathers borrowed heavily from Plato and regarded the writings of the Platonists to be compatible with their teachings. This is also the case with the Orthodox Church. The fact that so much of Plato's writings remain intact demonstrates it's relevance to Church interests.
    Well, just how many Germanic folks are Orthodox? The closest to any sizeable population is Finland, but that's due to Russians in Helsinki, not Finns, Swedes or Lapps. Shouldn't Germanic i.e. Protestant Christians draw upon Asatru-types of sources? Are not we all equal? Why have a spiritual subservience to other Indo-European groups? The Greeks have Zeus, but we have Tyr. Isn't our version good enough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    Well, just how many Germanic folks are Orthodox? The closest to any sizeable population is Finland, but that's due to Russians in Helsinki, not Finns, Swedes or Lapps. Shouldn't Germanic i.e. Protestant Christians draw upon Asatru-types of sources? Are not we all equal? Why have a spiritual subservience to other Indo-European groups? The Greeks have Zeus, but we have Tyr. Isn't our version good enough?
    Orthodoxy seemed to be trending among reactionary Anglos, I'm not sure if that is so much the case now after Heimbach's excommunication. This is really immaterial to the point though - Greco-Roman philosophy is baked into the cake of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and high-church Protestantism in a way that Asatru/other misc paganism never can be. Christianity grew up in the Greco-Roman milieu and early Christians explained their system of belief using timely Greco-Roman philosophical concepts, we can't remake that point of history. Further, the comparatively pitiful lack of surviving sources of Germanic paganism makes it extremely difficult to deduce a cohesive philosophy to begin with, let alone grasp it enough to apply it to another religion. There is also the looming possibility that we are not all equal, that a common Indo-European source may not mean all that much, and that our ancients and the Greco-Romans actually had genuinely conflicting worldviews (obviously not on the level of the mosaic distinction but perhaps real nonetheless).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coillearnach View Post
    Orthodoxy seemed to be trending among reactionary Anglos, I'm not sure if that is so much the case now after Heimbach's excommunication. This is really immaterial to the point though - Greco-Roman philosophy is baked into the cake of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and high-church Protestantism in a way that Asatru/other misc paganism never can be. Christianity grew up in the Greco-Roman milieu and early Christians explained their system of belief using timely Greco-Roman philosophical concepts, we can't remake that point of history. Further, the comparatively pitiful lack of surviving sources of Germanic paganism makes it extremely difficult to deduce a cohesive philosophy to begin with, let alone grasp it enough to apply it to another religion. There is also the looming possibility that we are not all equal, that a common Indo-European source may not mean all that much, and that our ancients and the Greco-Romans actually had genuinely conflicting worldviews (obviously not on the level of the mosaic distinction but perhaps real nonetheless).
    Very intelligent reply! You're on the right track, but overlooking important factors. Yes, Christianity is just another Greco-Roman religion, but not only. The Mediterranean establishment of the Pentarchy, with Greek Septuagint and Latin Vulgate, was to the benefit of the Apostolic Orthodox and Papist Catholic factions of Galilean Nazarenes, but outside Peter and the rest of the Twelve, Paul represented the missionary or evangelical church among the Galatians, a tradition stoked by the mythology of Joseph of Arimathea in Glastonbury and the conversion to Christ before it was made official in Rome.

    This life blood of an outsider Christianity was replicated when Wulfila spread Arianism among the East Germanic Goths, Vandals, Burgundians, etc. Eventually, the Albigensian Crusade and Avignon Papacy inspired Wycliffe and Hus to revive Transmontane Christianity, but it wasn't set in stone until the Augsburg (for Evangelicals) and Westphalia (for Reformed) treaties, along with the Glorious (for Anabaptists and Quakers) and American revolutions (for Unitarians). That's the natural consequence of living on the frontiers of great powers... everything is much slower. Smaller peoples aren't taken seriously, so Thor's hammers are immediately rendered as Hercules clubs. This ought to be remedied by true Germanic patriots, instead of running back to Rome, or Greece.

    The Paulinist lineage of Protestantism doesn't require episcopal succession, having sidestepped the Pentarchy hierarchy.

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    The well was poisoned long ago for me on this issue. I can't take Paulinism seriously for many reasons: elevating one apostle is like proof-texting, it completely undermines the authority of the Bible, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coillearnach View Post
    The well was poisoned long ago for me on this issue. I can't take Paulinism seriously for many reasons: elevating one apostle is like proof-texting, it completely undermines the authority of the Bible, etc.
    Paul is the chief evangelist of Christianity, which means that his efforts take up most post-Resurrection texts held sacred. If one wished to avoid the Jerusalem factionalism, then just be like Thomas Jefferson and only follow direct quotations of Christ in the Gospels. I don't read the works by Peter and James that often, but they are relevant. I hate proof-texting with a red hot seriousness, but it's helpful to know that the Apocrypha in the Septuagint proves that the Old Testament does have a Gentile POV basis beyond anything out of Persia. The challenge, is to revive both the Apocrypha and Gnostic Gospels as equally valid mysticism in the Christian experience.

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    The original article has moved to http://www.goddess-athena.org/Encyclopedia/Theology/index.htm

    And honestly , I do not understand much ,
    what the original author was writing down there ...

    I would probably have to lookup each 10th word of that article ,
    to probably translate it , so I would know , what he is "babbling" (Babyloning) about .

    The Greek "Gods" are always the Astrological Zodiac Constellations ,
    and the view and season they occur , are described in their descriptions .

    Demeter for example is Goddess of Harvest , Bacchus is God of the Wineyard .
    Grapevines grow either purple-blue or green , and their shape is a rhomboid.
    The Constellation 'Virgo' is rhomboid and has one of the blue bright stars called 'Spica' translated
    Grain , Crop , Corn ,
    and the Sun is / was in the House of Virgo at harvest time .

    Prosperia vanishes three month during Winter and usually the three Constellations
    the Sun is in and one before and one afterwards are not visible to the eye during night , dusk and dawn .
    Here for example the Old Testament could come to pass , describing the Tribe 'Benjamin' as
    Prosperia because receiving five times more in Egypt , than the other tribes .
    Bejamin dwells between the hights above Sagittarius and Aquarius , and 'Capricornus' had been
    walking in the deepest valley / dale on the nightly horizon 2000 - 5000 years ago without
    much visible stars directly above him .
    Mk 10:18 What do you call me a good master, no-one is good .

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