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Thread: Chaos and Order

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    Chaos and Order

    I attempted to broach this topic and another in the Philosophy section and a week later with almost a hundred reads, nothing. So, I thought I would try in the general section with another tact.

    If we believe, that all in nature is a cycle, that Chaos and Order are both necessary to life, then why battle for either? What is the purpose and meaning thereof?

    If Ragnarok is inevitable and is symbolic of the end of things for a new cycle.. then what good is there in the sacrifice?

    It is like the Christian notion of the death of Jesus. If he is God, then his sacrifice meant nothing because he would just be God again in a few days. Whereas, a mortal only has the one life and his giving of it has a deep meaning for the depth of said sacrifice.

    I believe, Ragnarok can be symbolic of utter change which comes in nature by laws of thermodynamics and other big words I could use but do not have the education to back up, but there will always be a struggle between those who follow good or evil natures. The former seeks order, justice and peace. The latter seeks power, domination and warfare.

    These are human struggles. I see the holy powers as those who are handling the struggles beyond our capacity. To expect a square peg to fit in a round hole or a baby to do advanced arithmetic are both doomed to fail. This is not to say we are weak as a people, only that we handle what is in our power and trust to the aforementioned holy powers to handle what is in their power. We both, by this, keep our heads up.

    Things grow, mature then fade and wither. This is the order of nature. Birth and death is inevitable, but it is what we do in between which matter to our folk and the legacy we leave our descendants. This is an honorable thing.

    Yet, to come at it like I have heard some say 'all is fruitless in the end, unavoidable as the grave.. woe woe.' is hardly inspiring. I believe our ancestors were a fighting people. Bravery in battle as a youth and strong of inner strength in old age to face the battle to come, makes much more sense to me.

    To me, moral relativism or to say 'it all comes to naught in the end' or 'one way is just as good as any other' is a way of baulking at our duties as members of the folk. It is like effeminate men who have forsaken their heritage of providence, defense and mentorship of family and wife due to it being too hard or old fashioned. It is the same with women who say 'raising a family or being a housewife is outdated and I have evolved beyond that modality' is a shame. A sense of false equality is a death to both genders.

    -end rant- ha ha.

    I am looking for thoughts though, despite my long windedness. I could preach to myself all day, but it is fellowship of discussion that drives me more than anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedan
    If we believe, that all in nature is a cycle, that Chaos and Order are both necessary to life, then why battle for either? What is the purpose and meaning thereof?
    What you're tenuously encroaching upon is the concept of non-attachment. Seeking past dualistic interpretation. Stop believing in either and you'll see more clearly. Nature simply is, it's not this or that, Nature behaves exactly how it's supposed to, Chaos is as natural as Order. All this in the cosmos are connected, push pull, all things are implicated with one another and in sympathy with one another.
    I say battle for Good. If it hurts the hive it hurts the bee. It's the natural disposition of rational beings to perform good, it is a hindrance not to.

    If Ragnarok is inevitable and is symbolic of the end of things for a new cycle.. then what good is there in the sacrifice?
    "Noble lies" for the public to keep in the back of their mind. Of course all things will come to an end, and no amount of sacrifice will help to stop it. The act of "sacrifice", the word derives from sacre facere: to make sacred, used to describe any act of self-transcending through which the individual sought to attain the divine. Now it's come to only denote any petty materialistic "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" relationship with gods, or the literal killing of an animal or man. The Gallic chieftain Brennus, when sacking Delphi in the 2nd century bc said that "The gods have no use of treasures since they showered them upon men", which logically makes sense.
    Sacrifice should be an attempt to shed off the burden of earthly dross in an effort to reach the divinity, an act of self-identification thereof. Every sacrifice presupposes some kind of Initiation, which has thoroughly lost its value in the subsequent ages into now, for example in the Christian tradition of baptism; the starting point of any sacrifice.
    It is like the Christian notion of the death of Jesus. If he is God, then his sacrifice meant nothing because he would just be God again in a few days. Whereas, a mortal only has the one life and his giving of it has a deep meaning for the depth of said sacrifice.
    This is a very shallow interpretation of the crucifixion. "If God's so great why'd he have to kill his own son!1?"
    Fulfillment is made manifest when Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross. Early Christian theologians (and should still) saw him as the Logos (λόγος) incarnate, which this concept was steadily eroded over the centuries into a more superstitious Judeo-paganistic (in the pejorative sense), shall I say again, materialistic outlook of outward favor in the stead of inward spiritual transformation.
    I believe, Ragnarok can be symbolic of utter change which comes in nature by laws of thermodynamics and other big words I could use but do not have the education to back up, but there will always be a struggle between those who follow good or evil natures. The former seeks order, justice and peace. The latter seeks power, domination and warfare.
    I like to view Ragnarok as breaking the threshold of Kali Yuga, or the Dark Age. After which proper human values are allowed to flourish again after this Dark Age has exhausted itself. It's no coincidence that afterwards the God of Peace, Beauty, and Light shall reign supreme.

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    @Elessar

    Thank you for your well thought out reply. I must, however, simply disagree respectfully.

    I use the ideas of Ragnarok as a bird's eye view of the big picture, yet my over arching point is on the societal and personal level.

    As heathens, and I do not know your personal faith, it is for us to seek to maintain order and justice in our life and for our folk. From the family level up to the tribe.

    In one of the sagas there is a quote:

    For with law shall our land be built up and settled, and with lawlessness wasted and spoiled. (Njal's Saga, c.69)
    The law has no place for 'going with the flow'. The burden of a leader is a heavy burden indeed. To respect the laws of a Kindred, so established and work to aide the greater Heathen community as one is able without harming one's own.

    When we think the law is malleable or to quote the american President, who thinks the constitution is a "living document" able to be modified as whim suits him, this is not how tradition is honored and maintained.

    If things change with the social and political climate, then tradition is moot and we have no connection past the current era in which we live to our ancestors.

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    Senior Member Hrogar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedan View Post
    If we believe, that all in nature is a cycle, that Chaos and Order are both necessary to life, then why battle for either? What is the purpose and meaning thereof?

    If Ragnarok is inevitable and is symbolic of the end of things for a new cycle.. then what good is there in the sacrifice?
    Order and Chaos are not an antithesis like the christian good and evil. Order and chaos are like the Hagal-rune, it sometimes takes a destructive hailstorm in order to prepare the soil for new growth. Existing structures tend to grow inert and gradually absorb more energy then their waning purpose and usefullness justifies.

    Order and Chaos work on several levels, on a cosmic level, but also on a societal level. On the societal level we speak of entropy (the natural tendency of all systems to lose order, cohesion and strength. When you don't upkeep your garden, it turns into a chaotic jungle. And it is the human endeavor that is necessary to keep up the level of civilization. This endeavor is a struggle to survive and more than that, a struggle to transcend based on the ideals that are most deeply rooted in a people. Or transcend on a collective personal level into your better self, into your own ubermensch. Transcend to a level worthy of the Gods.

    If we don't battle entropy (the societal level of chaos), we will lose control of our destiny.
    And in Ragnarok, the Gods and the Einherjar realize that they will have to battle the forces of chaos, even in they themselves will die in the process. It is their willingness to put their life on the line that gives them a fighting chance to begin with. And the deeper spiritual meaning of this is that we as humans have to live a life of strength of heart and soul. Because if even one generation fails this strength, we face a fierce setback in the struglle to survive and transcend. This is what we see today. The weak babyboomer-generation (not all of them of course, but a lot) have led to a weakening of our folk. Hence we have lots of problems combined with a weak strength to face up to them. This is why we are in a wolf age, because we stopped fighting Chaos/enthropy.

    And battle or struggle is not something negative. It is the manifestation of lifeforce, the essence of the deep spritual concept of Sigr. That which is strong doesn't wine about things being difficult, but is grins at difficulty and embraces it as THE opportunity to show its strength and lifeforce and push back chaos/entropy.
    Last edited by Hrogar; Monday, March 26th, 2012 at 03:24 PM. Reason: extension of explanation

    Honor and defend the northern people,
    Honor and defend the northern lands,
    Walk the Northern Path,
    Sigr!

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    Senior Member Bearkinder's Avatar
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    I'm going to change your order a bit to group two things that are related.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedan View Post
    If we believe, that all in nature is a cycle, that Chaos and Order are both necessary to life, then why battle for either?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedan View Post
    If Ragnarok is inevitable and is symbolic of the end of things for a new cycle.. then what good is there in the sacrifice?
    The example of life and death is easiest to use to explain. The forces of Order cause a tree to grow despite drought, wind and hail. The forces of Chaos cause the tree to wither, die, disintegrate and become the building block of the new tree that Order creates.

    Why fight? Simple. So that there will be survivors to make that new beginning. In Ragnarok, Odin knows that he will die, and so will several others. Why fight? so that not all will be lost, and there will be those who are around for the new beginning.

    Another example:
    You fall from a canoe in the rapids of a river. Do you say "What is the use in fighting to the surface and then to shore? I'm just going to die eventually, I might as well let the chaos of the river pull me down and drown me now." Or do you fight with everything you have to get to the surface and then to shore to get hoem to your wife and have children so there will be a legacy to go on after your inevitable death?

    Most people, when it comes right down to it, choose to fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedan View Post
    What is the purpose and meaning thereof?
    Order and chaos are simply the two halves of the engine that keeps life going. Without one or the other, there would be no cycle. They are not "good and evil" they simply are.


    Ponder this: Let's say that we use a particle model (though it is flawed) of matter.

    The scientific name for chaos is entropy. As time goes forward, entropy increases. Things break down further and further. Eventually, you will come to a point where everything has broken down to the point that it cannot be broken down any further. But, then some of the particles are closer to each other than to other particles, so there is still some semblance of order. So, things go on until every particle is an infinite distance from each other.

    Now, have you reached a point of complete chaos? Or, since the particles are now all in their base form, and equidistant (at an infinite distance) have you reached a point of complete order?

    Would not then groupings of particles into coherent structures (what we'd call an ordered arrangement), increase order, or, in upsetting the balance of equidistant base particles, do those structures represent an increase in chaos?

    They are the two basest of forces dancing around a void in the middle.

    Back to mythology: Niflheim, Muspelheim, and Ginnungagap.
    Nifleheim: complete order. Everything frozen, completely static.
    Muspelheim: Complete chaos, everything changing at once, boiling, churning.
    Ginnungagap: where elements of both meet explosively and form the world we know, a world of a constant cycle of order and chaos in constant motion, one feeding the other.

  6. #6
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    There is a difference in chaos.

    When A caterpillar weaves a cocon around her she goes through a complete liquid state, there is no form, then out of it developes the butterfly.

    Before the new can appear the old has to go. That is some kind of law.


    A different chaos is when things dissolve without the new come through, that is simply lawless destruction.

    I would make a difference between the two.

    When Odin killed Ymir and formed the world out of his body, that is when order attacked chaos and formed it into it's structure. Or in a different point of view consciousness forms matter into it's shape.

    When the consciousness leaves the body at death then the body/matter follows the laws of matter, a lower form of consciousness.

    It ends in. The utter destruction of the form of the body.

    Something similar we observe now on the cultural and spiritual level. The disintegration of the work of the Gods over the centuries and millennia.

    With what is it going to be replaced is the question at hand. When it would be a lawful process something new is coming up. When nothing is coming up and the downfall is stopped on a low level we have a different chaos here.

    Things go either up or down, there is no resting.

    at the battle of ragnaroek Odin gets consumed by the wolf but whether that means death or not, we do not know. (resurrection of the Gods is possible as we see with Baldr)

    Whether the Gods go through a lawful transformation like the caterpillar goes to become a butterfly or whether it is a complete distraction is anybodies guess.

    Odin is consumed by the wolf, whereas his signature animals are wolves too. wolves are associated with consuming the dead at the battlefield.

    The slavianic Veda claims that the Planet Earth is going through an area which is ruled by the dark forces (earth does so in a cyclical manner). during that time the Gods have much less power and dark forces much more. then the Humans are basically at autopilot and there inherent strength has to withstand the onslaught of the dark forces. Every time the dark forces come closer to the destruction of the Earth. but the Veda also claims that on the cosmic scale the dark forces lost already and the planet Earth is one of the battlefields where the dark forces fight a losing war.

    Jews as the group of people transformed and beaten into submission by dark forces until they are perfect tools for their work of destruction are bound to destroy the Earth. That is about the point where we are in this battle of Ragnaroek.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    There is a difference in chaos.

    When A caterpillar weaves a cocon around her she goes through a complete liquid state, there is no form, then out of it developes the butterfly.

    Before the new can appear the old has to go. That is some kind of law.


    A different chaos is when things dissolve without the new come through, that is simply lawless destruction.

    I would make a difference between the two.
    I look at it the other way. The chaos is the same. In the first example, Order fights the Chaos, forming the butterfly from the Chaos of the caterpillar's state.

    In the second, Chaos reaches its lowest state because there is no Order to fight it. But even if Chaos is allowed to reach its base state, order will arise, as Chaos cannot feed itself and "burns itself out".


    Re: Odin and death. One can argue either way. Does he die in terms of his current form being destroyed? Yes. Does he die in terms of ceasing to exist? No. Here's why I say that.

    I see three states of existence (to simplify things,, I don't want to write a thesis here): matter, energy and (for lack of a better term) spirit. Matter decays. Energy dissipates. Spirit endures.

    The world going through light and dark forces in its journey through the universe goes through cycles of "little Ragnaroks". You can say we all go through "little Ragnaroks". In fact, I am coming out of one. However, I think THE Ragnarok is the end of the universe. Every religion has the world ending in great fire an chaos, then a rebirth. Well, this planet will end in great fire and chaos when the sun leaves its main sequence life and expands its outer shell between what is now Earth and Mars. The sun isn't big enough to supernova, so there won't be a big cloud of dust to reform another solar system, it'll just fizzle out. I do not believe this is THE Ragnarok, either.

    However, when the universe ends (again what I think religions call "the world" isn't this planet, but the whole of the universe), it will also collapse in great fire and chaos. The purpose of the gods, and their chosen is to provide the Order, or in scientific terms, the quantum seed, for the next world to form from the chaos of the demise of this one.

    I also see no problem (not saying you do) with Odin fighting, and being consumed, by Fenris, and wolves being one of hsi symbols. What are wolves? Yes, they eat the dead. But metaphorically, they are agents of change. They eat what they come across (the best predators are even better scavengers), convert it to poop, which fertilizes the ground which grows plants, which are eaten by animals which die. . .

    What is Fenris, but the personification of the ultimate change? Why was he bound? Because he was leaving the bounds of duty and throwing everything into chaos -- trying to convert everything before its time. Note who was instrumental in Fenris being bound -- Tyr, the god of law and Order. Order met Chaos, and sacrificed of itself that Chaos might be bound until such time comes as the world must come to its final change. This is the same story as Satan being bound and only released at the end of time, at the final battle before the world is consumed in fire and the new Earth is formed.

    It is a part of every religion, and something we all know, deep down, is going to happen and indeed must happen. I hate to quote a TV show, but "It's all happened before and it will all happen again."

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    To take the discussion in a different direction as a creative expression.. the Einherjar fight in Valhalla (presumably as spirits or some such as they had long since been absent human bodies) with the Gods and all die as prophecy demands..

    If the universe is destroyed only to be rebuilt.. would this mean that those in Freya's Hall or those in Hel would be destroyed as well?

    This is where I note that I am prone to literalism, because I like to know such things. If a faith just has 'fuzzy' areas, it grates on my nerves to be quite honest.. haha.

    If matter can not be created or destroyed, as those smarter than myself have said, then to change forms would still be a destruction of the 'self' you cultivated in life thus making reincarnation moot as you would not have recollection of the former.. thus making a continuity meaningless.

    It would be like, say, you are immortal in spirit, but with the passing of the body you have no knowledge of the past life or things to carry with you forward that make you a self-conscious being even if you are reborn countless numbers of times.

    Such arm chair philosophy on a morning monday.. yet, it does amuse me so.

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    Senior Member Neophyte's Avatar
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    All complex systems are characterised by ebbs and flows, that is their nature. Just look at the cycles created by predator-prey-plants interactions in ecology, of the business cycle in the economy. Or traffic jams for that matter.

    Systems predicated on growth—such as anything living and multiplying—tends to grow past the point at which they are stable and sustainable; it works for a while, but then they crash and tend to sink well below the point at which they became unstable before they start to grow again.

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    Eala Freia Fresena
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    The sun dying and will become a planet and later a dead meteorit is one theory.

    Another theory is that the earth is on it's way to become a sun, getting warmer and warmer and finally radiate light.

    We know different stages of celestial elements exist, we just do not know in which direction they develop, going up or going down. Maybe both exists at the same time.

    At the first look it seems that matter/energy is the last state of chaos. But on closer look matter exists as waves. Waves can be dissolved too.

    During Chaos things still exist, so it is distinct from nothingness.

    What is missing is the ordering hand, aka consciousness.

    But can consciousness disappear? Can it be dissolved?
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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