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Thread: Nothingness After Death

  1. #51
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    I rather like the view that Marcus Aurelius held about death:

    * Either there are benevolent gods, in which case death isn't to be worried about if you've lived the right kind of life.

    * Or death is nothingness, in which case sensation isn't a concern any longer and you're free from the cares and concerns of life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I rather like the view that Marcus Aurelius held about death:

    * Either there are benevolent gods, in which case death isn't to be worried about if you've lived the right kind of life.

    * Or death is nothingness, in which case sensation isn't a concern any longer and you're free from the cares and concerns of life.
    Surely there is also the possibility of malevolent or indifferent gods?
    Denn das Schöne ist nichts
 als des Schrecklichen Anfang, den wir noch grade ertragen,
 und wir bewundern es so, weil es gelassen verschmäht, uns zu zerstören.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ablutive View Post
    Surely there is also the possibility of malevolent or indifferent gods?
    Not according to the Stoics, as that which is divine is perfectly good. A malevolent deity is a contradiction in terms. Indifferent gods are no better than those of the Epicureans and may as well not exist for all of the use they are.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Olavssønn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erlkönig View Post
    Why do you presume that consciousness cannot sustain itself in a form of pure energy.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    My reasons are two fold; lack of evidence and evidence to the contrary. An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence. However, there is no evidence at all for the proposition that consciousness survives the destruction of the brain.
    That is not true. There are indeed various kinds of evidence pointing in this direction - after looking at that with an open mind, one isn't that uncertain anymore as to whether some of our consciousness survives the death of the biological body. I'm thinking about this little interesting book among other things:

    Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-death Experiences

    Their study of the NDE-phenomenon is quite detailed and methodical, debunking the common sceptic-arguments against its reality. When taking into regards every single line of evidence presented in the book, it seems very likely that some kind of extremely lucid consciousness indeed may exist outside of the brain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    Interesting (if slightly disturbing) thread. The possibility of an afterlife is one of those things that are impossible to prove, but I tend to agree with these posts:

    Living forever, trapped in the same body and personality, doesn't sound appealing to me. Even the idea of death and reincarnation sounds better.
    Well, just because a part of our consciousness may continue to exist after death, that doesn't mean one will necessarily exist for all eternity with the same body and personality, as you put it. I guess that this essence may manifest itself in many different forms and contexts.
    "Man evolved in cooperating groups united by common cultural and genetic ties, and it is only in such a setting that the individual can feel truly free, and truly protected. Men cannot live happily alone and without values or any sense of identity…" - Alain de Benoist
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olavssønn View Post
    That is not true. There are indeed various kinds of evidence pointing in this direction - after looking at that with an open mind, one isn't that uncertain anymore as to whether some of our consciousness survives the death of the biological body. I'm thinking about this little interesting book among other things:

    Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-death Experiences

    Their study of the NDE-phenomenon is quite detailed and methodical, debunking the common sceptic-arguments against its reality. When taking into regards every single line of evidence presented in the book, it seems very likely that some kind of extremely lucid consciousness indeed may exist outside of the brain.
    The near death experience doesn't constitute proof of an afterlife any more than an hallucination constitutes proof of pink elephants. For one thing the individuals who have these experiences are not actually brain dead when the experiences occur, therefore they are almost certainly the result of brain activity of some kind.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    The near death experience doesn't constitute proof of an afterlife any more than an hallucination constitutes proof of pink elephants. For one thing the individuals who have these experiences are not actually brain dead when the experiences occur, therefore they are almost certainly the result of brain activity of some kind.
    Indeed, scientists have conducted various studies regarding the nature of near-death experiences, and some popular hypotheses are that they are trauma-induced hallucinations or instictively-triggered states of REM sleep and dreaming.
    Leben heißt für mich, mehr Träume in meiner Seele zu haben als die Realität zerstören kann.
    -Hans Kruppa

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ablutive
    Surely there is also the possibility of malevolent or indifferent gods?
    Not according to the Stoics, as that which is divine is perfectly good. A malevolent deity is a contradiction in terms. Indifferent gods are no better than those of the Epicureans and may as well not exist for all of the use they are.
    I don't buy it. Knowing what I know about this universe, (the vast majority of it being quite hostile to human life if not all life,) I think the possibility that the most powerful beings in this universe are at least indifferent to us is a very real one.

    The Epicureans world on the other hand was bounded by the sea and the sky. They had absolutely no conception of the vastness and emptiness of the space that surrounds the earth.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Senior Member Olavssønn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    The near death experience doesn't constitute proof of an afterlife any more than an hallucination constitutes proof of pink elephants. For one thing the individuals who have these experiences are not actually brain dead when the experiences occur, therefore they are almost certainly the result of brain activity of some kind.
    You should really read the book. It would be hard to summarize all details in a post on this forum, but there are too many elements in a high number of case reports that really can't be explained by any sceptic-theory. And yes, the brain-activity is totally dead in some of the cases. Yet, some of the people who have been revived have told the doctors of clear, detailed and correct observations of what happened in the room while he/she was clinically dead. I could mention a hundred other details which can't be explained in any other way than the possibility that a lucid consciousness may exist independently of the brain.
    This book is based upon the most detailed, comprehensive and scientifically systematic study of the phenomenon. The author is not a new age freak either. His conclusions are obviously well founded.
    "Man evolved in cooperating groups united by common cultural and genetic ties, and it is only in such a setting that the individual can feel truly free, and truly protected. Men cannot live happily alone and without values or any sense of identity…" - Alain de Benoist
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    Smile Death: Ultimate end or new beginning?

    A very interesting thread!
    I am in agreement with Olavssonn that there is proof that human consciousness, while in interaction with our intellect, does exist independently of the physical brain or intellect. And this in itself has far- reaching implications for coming to a better understanding of our very existence. But apart from this, there are other aspects that really baffle me at times!:

    We indulge ourselves in very intellectual/scientific-cum-philisophical debates regarding the meaning (or lack thereof) of life! If we "arrived" (so to speak) on this planet only to spend a few measley years in laboriusly eking out a living, and then to die again and become nothing more than a memory in a photo on the wall, what is then the stupid reason for it all? Is that really all there is to life? REALLY?

    So many of our contemporaries in this so-called modern, science glorifying, technological world go through life devoted to come to grips with the intricacies of this life through incisive, analytical, rational thinking and brilliant intellectual debate, on the one hand. On the other hand, many of those very same individuals are quick to contemplate the existence of aliens in outer space, they defend the evolution of homo sapiens from ape-like forebears to the brilliant globe trotters of our day with equal vehemence.

    But should any "ape" dare to mention the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as a loving ,caring Father who assures us of eternal life if only we believe in Him, they explode in profanity! What fools dare believe in such crap!!

    The question that irks me is this: What is easier than to believe in a living God, creator of the universe who only expects of me to put my trust in Him for all eternity? It does neither demand mind-crippling debate, nor groping-in-the-dark arguments.

    No, He does not require of me to suspend my intellectual abilities or incisive thinking; that indeed brings me to greater understanding of the universe I live in, my purpose for living and my eternal destiny! No sweat!

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    Although by no means an expert, I've read a lot of stuff to do with quantum physics over the years and it's quite mind-boggling where some of the theories can lead you!

    Parallel universes, flexible time that goes both ways and at different speeds, extra dimensions beyond our perception, the material world being an illusion created by the mind etc... There is now mounting (some would say overwhelming) evidence for all of these phenomena, and when you ponder the implications you realise that nothing can be ruled out!

    I would say that, on the balance of probability, existence in some form continues after what we know as 'death' but its nature could be such that it is impossible to describe by relating it to our current experiences and using terms associated therewith.

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