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Thread: Odin's Timeline: When is Odin first mentioned?

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    Question Odin's Timeline: When is Odin first mentioned?

    What is the consensus on the earliest date Odin is mentioned in history? Snorri or otherwise?

    Thanks,

    RSG

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    he has been mentioned in the slavianic Veda to live in the black sea area together with his brothers ve and velis ( the book of Veles is attributed to him).

    They lived in the black sea area, then moved into the Aryan city of Troy and from there nortward. He started several families and had noble offsprings. He also started the family of the Svea.

    The Veda said he settled on an Island, to believed to be Ruegen in the Baltic sea.

    I can check up the timeline in the Vedas.

    The Odin cult is believed to have been started around 300 BC.

    In the Vedas he is not the main God but the shaman God.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    I don't know of an earliest date, but H.M. Chadwick in his The Cult of Othinn said the following..

    Quote Originally Posted by H.M. Chadwick
    The conclusions attained in the course of this discussion may be briefly
    summarised as follows :—

    [1] The cult of Othin was in all probability known in the North at the beginning of the sixth century; there is no reason for supposing that it was then new.

    [2] The cult does not seem to have been practised by the Swedes in the first half century of the present era.

    [3] If the adoption of cremation was due to the cult of Othin, the cult can hardly have been introduced into Sweden later than the end of the first century.
    I'm not so sure of your Troy theory there Ocko? Does that include Thor being Odin's father as well?

    What god is he in the Vedas? Or, any of those texts? Is he Vata or Vishnu or can he be "found" in some others?

    Odin is Odin and that is all there is to it..

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    I think a major problem here is that the focus seems to be on the name Odin. And sixth century only. The God was already know much earlier then that in the South under the name of Wodan. The name among North Germanics changed in to Odin over the course time.

    Considering the cult, that would require some more checking some of the books behind me to see if they have any information about this, or could provide clues.
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    Wodan is Odin! I know cultural preferences differed with his perceived character, but he is still the same archetype coursing through our veins! Those where just different manifestations of our Folk Soul I would say..

    I don't think we can really experience that at all when we try to do a bunch of comparative mythology and get at some universal truth or whatever behind who our deities are and how we can relate to them as our ancestors. For that very reason they are unique to us and cannot be found elsewhere..

    To compare, or even look for our Gods in the Gods of other Folks is to do them a great disservice in my eye..

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    Well, there was a being named Wod who was (one of ) the leader of the Wild Hunt in West Germanic folklore. And this same figure OdhR appears in the Eddas as Freyja's troublemaking and absent husband; who she has to follow around doling out, ie. crying, gold as she goes ... which I've always taken as paying fines and wergilds for his troublemaking and murders.

    This name may or may not be related to the Sanskrit wind-god Vata ... from a root meaning inspiration. According to Adam of Breman Woden had clear and explicit associatons with fury, while the term wod was used to indicate feral madness and demonic possession; which is inline with the character of the utangard-natuer of the **Wild*** Hunt. It is also in line with some of the most enduring associations of the god Woden. Namely the gallows and wolves ... both associated with criminal (as opposed to shameful) felony. This is not to mention his many BolverkR-like names.

    It is interesting to note that the gallows exists within a legal context. And that the judgement for such executions rested, in ancients times, in the hands of the high-priest of the tribe, whom, according to Tacitus, had to pass judgement based on the will of the god whom accompanies them to the field of battle, ie. Mars Thingsus, Tiw.

    Woden first appears in Roman history under the gloss of Mercury, and from the earleist writings, those of Tacitus, he is ranked alongside Mars (Tiw) in the sphere of war. Both in fact were associated with the disposal of the spoils of warfare; as custom that followed on the heels of the climate change that sparked the migrations and warfare of the Iron Age.

    Now, if you will imagine the preceding Bronze Age was a LONG 1300 year period of prosperity and stability for the fledgling Germanic tribes, and of being surrounded by peoples that were more or less like one's own and played by the same cultural rulebook. Especiually where warfare was concerned. We had a cultural aesthetic of war, the aesthetic of the single combatant, and war was as much sport as anything else, as there was no lack. And it never resulted in cultural diveregence in the southern Scandinavian cradle of the Folk, ie. as a result of anger, hurt feelings, endless cycles of revenge killings and widespread xenophobia, but in coalescence into Common Germanic culture and language ... which can't happen when people dispise and ignore each other.

    But the opening of the Celtic Iron Age, and particularly the contact with the Roman Legions challenged the old combat aesthetic. War became less a game played by the individual combatant for the sake of personal glory, and MORE a matter of, not simply individual survival -- as the warrior is more than willing to die in pursuit of glory -- but of clannic survival ... the clan being the ultimate carrier of personal glory, ie. no clan = no glory. Hence, victory HAD to come ... by ANY means necessary, aesthetics be damned!

    Thence began the LONG custom of the disposal of the spoils of war into the lakes and bogs ... devoted according to Tacitus to the Germanic Mars and Mercury. These were once the very tokens of glory that returning warriors brandished as proof of their manly exploits. Now they were treated as the people of the age treated the most shameful criminals ... ritually burnt, multilated and destroyed and haphazardly cast into bogs.

    I've come to suspect that this custom of bog disposals, of the spoils of war, marks out lifting of Wod (Fury) into Wod-en (MASTER of Fury) and the corresponding shift in power within the cult of war from Tiw, the Shining God of Heroism, to Woden the Wolfish God of Necessity. This custom is tantamout to Tiw's severed hand and the Binding of hte Wulf; enabling the warrior to do what needs to be done for the sake of the survival of the community, but making them pay the fine and refrain from reveling in an ill-won victory.

    Anyway, if this is so, the Hjortspring bog-disposal is somehwere in the 4th century BCE. The corresponding climate changing REALLY set in about a century earlier. And the practice seems to have tapperd off by the 3rd century CE; which is, if only by coincidence, the very century in which Woden begins appearing in Royal geneologies.

    Now, one of Woden's bynames is said, in the Eddas, to be Jormun. This is the Norse form of the German Irmin, who, according to the "Ancient Hymns" mentioned by Tacitus, gave his name to the Hermiones or Irminones. They are said to have been distinct from the seashore tribes, ie. the cradle tribes of his brother Ingui, and represent those tribes that formed up and came to occupy "the interior" (of Germany). Their heirs were probably "the Saxons", amongst possible others. The Westphalian Saxons are known to have celebrated the Irminsul; destroyed by Charlemagne in the 8th century CE. According to Widukind the Monk it was associated with the worship of Hermes who was nevertheless worshipped as Mars, ie. Woden, the Mars-like Mercury. According to Snorri the cult of Woden began in Germany, founded the Wodenic kingship, and then moved up into the Ingvaeonic Sweden for it's fateful encounter with the Yngling Swede-King, Gylfi.

    IMO, speaking in terms of the evolution of cultural forms (of the divine), Woden seems to be the cultural coalescence of this felonous wind-spirit, Wod, the radiant demi-god Irmin (Arminius?), and perhaps a number of other figures as well, eg. Geat. I don't believe he, or Thunor, are ancient, culturally speaking, amongst the tribes of the seashore, but were rather, later evolutions that had their beginnings amongst tribes that had migrated out of the southern Scandinavian homeland (but nevertheless maintained cultural contact with it).

    THe Eddic Loki also seems to have been born out of this. He may have taken an earlier Wod's place in some myths. In Saxo's Gesta Danorum there is only Utgard-Loki, and it is HE who is bound in the underworld with a snake dripping poison on him. Curiously, this image of either Loki is reminscient itself of the fate of capital offenders submerged in the wyrm infested bog ... or of the Anglo-Saxon and Saxon glosses for the Christian lake of fire in Wyrmsele and Wyrmgarten respectively. Wod might have been the criminal felon swinging from a tree, the spirit of felony, and Loki, his companion, the tortured and bogged shameful felon, the spirit of shame and disgrace.

    Anyway, just some thoughts!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamey Martin View Post
    Well, there was a being named Wod who was (one of ) the leader of the Wild Hunt in West Germanic folklore. And this same figure OdhR appears in the Eddas as Freyja's troublemaking and absent husband; who she has to follow around doling out, ie. crying, gold as she goes ... which I've always taken as paying fines and wergilds for his troublemaking and murders.

    This name may or may not be related to the Sanskrit wind-god Vata ... from a root meaning inspiration. According to Adam of Breman Woden had clear and explicit associatons with fury, while the term wod was used to indicate feral madness and demonic possession; which is inline with the character of the utangard-natuer of the **Wild*** Hunt. It is also in line with some of the most enduring associations of the god Woden. Namely the gallows and wolves ... both associated with criminal (as opposed to shameful) felony. This is not to mention his many BolverkR-like names.

    It is interesting to note that the gallows exists within a legal context. And that the judgement for such executions rested, in ancients times, in the hands of the high-priest of the tribe, whom, according to Tacitus, had to pass judgement based on the will of the god whom accompanies them to the field of battle, ie. Mars Thingsus, Tiw.

    Woden first appears in Roman history under the gloss of Mercury, and from the earleist writings, those of Tacitus, he is ranked alongside Mars (Tiw) in the sphere of war. Both in fact were associated with the disposal of the spoils of warfare; as custom that followed on the heels of the climate change that sparked the migrations and warfare of the Iron Age.

    Now, if you will imagine the preceding Bronze Age was a LONG 1300 year period of prosperity and stability for the fledgling Germanic tribes, and of being surrounded by peoples that were more or less like one's own and played by the same cultural rulebook. Especiually where warfare was concerned. We had a cultural aesthetic of war, the aesthetic of the single combatant, and war was as much sport as anything else, as there was no lack. And it never resulted in cultural diveregence in the southern Scandinavian cradle of the Folk, ie. as a result of anger, hurt feelings, endless cycles of revenge killings and widespread xenophobia, but in coalescence into Common Germanic culture and language ... which can't happen when people dispise and ignore each other.

    But the opening of the Celtic Iron Age, and particularly the contact with the Roman Legions challenged the old combat aesthetic. War became less a game played by the individual combatant for the sake of personal glory, and MORE a matter of, not simply individual survival -- as the warrior is more than willing to die in pursuit of glory -- but of clannic survival ... the clan being the ultimate carrier of personal glory, ie. no clan = no glory. Hence, victory HAD to come ... by ANY means necessary, aesthetics be damned!

    Thence began the LONG custom of the disposal of the spoils of war into the lakes and bogs ... devoted according to Tacitus to the Germanic Mars and Mercury. These were once the very tokens of glory that returning warriors brandished as proof of their manly exploits. Now they were treated as the people of the age treated the most shameful criminals ... ritually burnt, multilated and destroyed and haphazardly cast into bogs.

    I've come to suspect that this custom of bog disposals, of the spoils of war, marks out lifting of Wod (Fury) into Wod-en (MASTER of Fury) and the corresponding shift in power within the cult of war from Tiw, the Shining God of Heroism, to Woden the Wolfish God of Necessity. This custom is tantamout to Tiw's severed hand and the Binding of hte Wulf; enabling the warrior to do what needs to be done for the sake of the survival of the community, but making them pay the fine and refrain from reveling in an ill-won victory.

    Anyway, if this is so, the Hjortspring bog-disposal is somehwere in the 4th century BCE. The corresponding climate changing REALLY set in about a century earlier. And the practice seems to have tapperd off by the 3rd century CE; which is, if only by coincidence, the very century in which Woden begins appearing in Royal geneologies.

    Now, one of Woden's bynames is said, in the Eddas, to be Jormun. This is the Norse form of the German Irmin, who, according to the "Ancient Hymns" mentioned by Tacitus, gave his name to the Hermiones or Irminones. They are said to have been distinct from the seashore tribes, ie. the cradle tribes of his brother Ingui, and represent those tribes that formed up and came to occupy "the interior" (of Germany). Their heirs were probably "the Saxons", amongst possible others. The Westphalian Saxons are known to have celebrated the Irminsul; destroyed by Charlemagne in the 8th century CE. According to Widukind the Monk it was associated with the worship of Hermes who was nevertheless worshipped as Mars, ie. Woden, the Mars-like Mercury. According to Snorri the cult of Woden began in Germany, founded the Wodenic kingship, and then moved up into the Ingvaeonic Sweden for it's fateful encounter with the Yngling Swede-King, Gylfi.

    IMO, speaking in terms of the evolution of cultural forms (of the divine), Woden seems to be the cultural coalescence of this felonous wind-spirit, Wod, the radiant demi-god Irmin (Arminius?), and perhaps a number of other figures as well, eg. Geat. I don't believe he, or Thunor, are ancient, culturally speaking, amongst the tribes of the seashore, but were rather, later evolutions that had their beginnings amongst tribes that had migrated out of the southern Scandinavian homeland (but nevertheless maintained cultural contact with it).

    THe Eddic Loki also seems to have been born out of this. He may have taken an earlier Wod's place in some myths. In Saxo's Gesta Danorum there is only Utgard-Loki, and it is HE who is bound in the underworld with a snake dripping poison on him. Curiously, this image of either Loki is reminscient itself of the fate of capital offenders submerged in the wyrm infested bog ... or of the Anglo-Saxon and Saxon glosses for the Christian lake of fire in Wyrmsele and Wyrmgarten respectively. Wod might have been the criminal felon swinging from a tree, the spirit of felony, and Loki, his companion, the tortured and bogged shameful felon, the spirit of shame and disgrace.

    Anyway, just some thoughts!
    I've been researching this shift from high god shift Tyr to Odin for quite some time. This is possibly the best explanation that I've seen.

    I would also conjecture that the coming of the Viking age may have played a part. The power shift from being mostly agrarian ruled society to raiders and warrior kings may have necessitated the change. Among raiders and the like there is less emphasis on law and justice, more on glory. The promise of an afterlife in Valhalla for a glorious death in battle, as death in battle was likely to happen for them, led to Odin's role as chief deity. This is especially true for Icelanders considering Iceland was founded by Vikings, not just norsemen or germanic tribesmen in general. This could be why we have more mention of Odin in the eddas and sagas than would necessarily be found in German or continental germanic literature.

    Just a theory.

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    In one of the Germania Hefte der SS Ahnenerbe is an article about the oldest pictogram of a God with a lance. As far as I remember it was dated around 300 BC, Christian yearcounting.

    The runas have a similar age.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    *Wodanhaz is a Migraton Age borrowing that shares a root with the Vedic vrdhana, through a reconstructed Ossetic *wardana. Ofc such gods are much older but the name is young.

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    BTW the state Westfalia or old writing West Phalia has the root Phol or Phal which is another name of Baldur. the son of Wodan, also the sun-symbol.

    With Wodan as Storm God the sun as his son is a fitting symbol.

    My understand is that the Gods are real and not make ups of germanic tribes, aka an alter-ego.

    Saxon might just be the 'sons of Sak'.

    Guido von List thinks it comes from the name Settler.

    The origin myth of the Saxon tells that their founder came out of a rock. Which some other tribes have as their Myth. (Also Christianity's son of God comes out of a rock-grave)

    In the Edda's Odin is the originator of the Aesir, who are his sons. With Tyr not to be known whether brother or son or something else.

    Wodan is the origin of humans*, giving them mind, breath (the rhythmic system of lungs and heart), as well as movement and life.

    Which are the body elements of humans, the head (the mind), the emotions/rhythmic system Breath and heart beat, the limbs are the facilitators of movement and life are the internal organs keeping people in life (movement = human in space, life= human in time)

    Tyr and the limbs have an interesting relationship:

    the bones of the arms are as follows:

    upper arm = 1 bone
    lower arm = 2 bones
    then follows a row of ten bones from the thumb through the base of the hand, like cutting it off

    the hand palm has then 3 bones
    then 4 bones

    and the 4 fingers attached to the handpalm have altogether 12 bones (4x3)

    All are sacred numbers.

    With Tyr having his hand cut resembles somewhat the bones structur of arm and leg.



    * It is generally alleged that the cocreators are his brothers (with Loki as his blood-brother) but there is no proof of that.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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