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Thread: Would There have Been National Socialism Without Hitler?

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    Senior Member ogenoct's Avatar
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    Question Would There have Been National Socialism Without Hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Wasn't Hitler central to N-S?
    I do not see why, except that he made himself the focal point. I dare argue that National Socialism was a success (while it lasted) IN SPITE of Hitler and not because of him. After all, Hitler was the one most reluctant to go pan-European. Hence, his early refusal to incorporate non-Germanics into the ranks of the Waffen-SS.

    Constantin
    Last edited by Moody; Monday, July 12th, 2004 at 04:16 PM.

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    Post Hitler central to N-S?

    Quote Originally Posted by ogenoct
    Hence, his early refusal to incorporate non-Germanics into the ranks of the Waffen-SS.
    Not so.

    http://ukr-ww2.onestop.net/lah.html
    http://ukr-ww2.onestop.net/totenkopf.html
    Last edited by Moody; Monday, July 12th, 2004 at 04:20 PM. Reason: split thread

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Re: [Spli from] The meaning of "Aryan" and how it applies to National Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by ogenoct
    I do not see why, except that he made himself the focal point. I dare argue that National Socialism was a success (while it lasted) IN SPITE of Hitler and not because of him. After all, Hitler was the one most reluctant to go pan-European. Hence, his early refusal to incorporate non-Germanics into the ranks of the Waffen-SS.

    Constantin
    I would say that Hitler INVENTED N-S ... As We Know It.

    He synthesised the necessary elements and brought together the symbolism.
    He established the necessary militaristic underpinning and helped develop a political philosophy that became a spring-board for modern WN.

    If N-S WERE a religion, then Hitler would be its Jesus, its Mohammed, its Buddha etc., etc.,
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Post Re: [Spli from] The meaning of "Aryan" and how it applies to National Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    I would say that Hitler INVENTED N-S ... As We Know It.

    He synthesised the necessary elements and brought together the symbolism.
    He established the necessary militaristic underpinning and helped develop a political philosophy that became a spring-board for modern WN.

    If N-S WERE a religion, then Hitler would be its Jesus, its Mohammed, its Buddha etc., etc.,
    Indeed. If Hitler would have never lived, there would have been in Germany after the First World War other groups (probably not even becoming in the same way "movements") with that name (there was indeed in German-Bohemia [Sudetenland] since 1905 a party which called itself then since May 1918 German National Socialist Worker's Party). There would have been other völkisch, nationalist, social revolutionary groups; others would have been inspired by Mussolini's fascism and would have tried to create something similar; others would have tried to fusion Nationalism with Socialism. Strasser, Goebbels, Göring may would have found their place in politics.

    But the phenomenon National Socialism as it came into being then in post-revolutionary Munich, as it then became a movement in whole Germany and then seized power and transformed Germany; the original amalgamation of the various old and new elements, its looking, its spirit, its energy and true radicalism was essentially Hitler's creation, and Hitler was the motor of the movement, its true Führer.

    National Socialism was his mind moulded into ideology; the National Socialist state beared his features, structered into a system. Hitler was the personification of the NS movement as much as a man ever could be it - not just a more or less hollow, meaningless figurehead.
    Last edited by Nordgau; Monday, July 12th, 2004 at 09:37 PM.
    Man ſei Held oder Heiliger. In der Mitte liegt nicht die Weisheit, ſondern die Alltäglichkeit.

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    Senior Member The Dagda's Avatar
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    Post Re: Would There have Been N-S Without Hitler?

    Many people before Hitler combined Nationalism and Socialism, so yes there
    not just would, but was, NS without Hitler.
    National Socialism is nothing more than Fascism, but like I keep saying it's been twisted about over the years by WN into something it was never meant
    to be.

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    Senior Member ogenoct's Avatar
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    Post Re: [Spli from] The meaning of "Aryan" and how it applies to National Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    I would say that Hitler INVENTED N-S ... As We Know It.

    He synthesised the necessary elements and brought together the symbolism.
    He established the necessary militaristic underpinning and helped develop a political philosophy that became a spring-board for modern WN.

    If N-S WERE a religion, then Hitler would be its Jesus, its Mohammed, its Buddha etc., etc.,
    What about Maurice Barres? He was clearly the one who "invented" the system of National Socialism in France in the late 19th century. Also, NS in Germany existed before Hitler joined the DAP. The same goes for the symbolism of the NSDAP. The Swastika was already in use by many occult societies in Germany, such as the Thule Gesellschaft. It was all in existence when Hitler was still in diapers! It was Hitler that was influenced and not the other way round.

    Constantin

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    Post Re: [Spli from] The meaning of "Aryan" and how it applies to National Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordgau
    Indeed. If Hitler would have never lived, there would have been in Germany after the First World War other groups (probably not even becoming in the same way "movements") with that name (there was indeed in German-Bohemia [Sudetenland] since 1905 a party which called itself then since May 1918 German National Socialist Worker's Party). There would have been other völkisch, nationalist, social revolutionary groups; others would have been inspired by Mussolini's fascism and would have tried to create something similar; others would have tried to fusion Nationalism with Socialism. Strasser, Goebbels, Göring may would have found their place in politics.

    But the phenomenon National Socialism as it came into being then in post-revolutionary Munich, as it then became a movement in whole Germany and then seized power and transformed Germany; the original amalgamation of the various old and new elements, its looking, its spirit, its energy and true radicalism was essentially Hitler's creation, and Hitler was the motor of the movement, its true Führer.

    National Socialism was his mind moulded into ideology; the National Socialist state beared his features, structered into a system. Hitler was the personification of the NS movement as much as a man ever could be it - not just a more or less hollow, meaningless figurehead.
    Totally agree Gau, couldn't of said it better. I was going to say something in relation to yours, but that canceled it out.

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Re: [Spli from] The meaning of "Aryan" and how it applies to National Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by MVSSOLINI
    Totally agree Gau, couldn't of said it better. I was going to say something in relation to yours, but that canceled it out.
    I agree with your agreement.

    While the elements of N-S were around before Hitler, it was Hitler who synthesised them, and then ENERGISED them.

    His incredible Will was what made N-S into the great movement that was able to mount a challenge to the Judaised world powers of plutocracy and communism.

    Barres's movement was reactionary in comparison; while Mussolini's Fascism drew on Roman Imperialism, and not on the Nordic/Aryan Mythos of N-S.

    N-S is UNTHINKABLE without Hitler; it would have been a fringe-group at most; a tiny nationalist faction which would have been overwhelmed by communism before it even got started.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Prussian's Avatar
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    Post Re: Would There have Been N-S Without Hitler?

    Would there have been National Socialism without hitler?

    hmmm hard question to answer, I would say both yes & no, it could have went many ways, but speculation on such a scenario is illrelevent.

    But what must be realised of course that there is no doubt hitler was a major part of the vigour injected into National Socialism, his rhetoric toward his foes was undeniably near genius at times.

    However large portions of National Socialism's ideological base as it is known is not the product of one man nor just of a particular era rather it should be seen as more an evolutionary process within the german political context.

    The National Socialists took what was already there and remodelled it whilst injecting it with an energy that cannot be compared with in most revolutionary occurances.

    What most people do not realise is that the National Socialist state was modelled in a lot of ways (not all) around the past empire, a good example is Kulturkaammp (German cultural law) which was made official law during the Kaiserreich period, hence you can see the resurfacing of it in the national socialist state after the Weimar years, most evident in culturally & ethnically based laws.

    When it comes to the wehrmacht indeed it is a legendary army with high interest among war historians the world over, however the wehrmacht was built upon something already long established in germany and that was a highly trained competent officer core reflective of Prussia's great military tradition founded during the reign of freidrich the great.

    Though it can be said that National Socialist germany did indeed work on that all ready established base and speed up the motorisation of the german armed forces and gave a strong emphasis on ensuring that tradition followed on.

    As for National Socialism starting in france, the term & ideology of socialism did indeed come out of & was established during the french revolution and yes it was on the national scale at the time as it happened within the borders of france, but the comparisions between french revolutionary period socialism and national socialism are not well founded nor is marxist based socialism, indeed they are all ideologies pertaining to the word socialism but all very different.

    Considering National Socialism was based on a cultural tradition going back centuries even to a thousand years in that degree, I make this statement in the knowledge that kulturkaammp is in fact so old that nobody knows who actually wrote it or how old it actually is, but it is clear it is german cultural law passed down over many centuries.

    Also comparisions between the french revolution socialism and also marxist period socialism toward National Socialism is again a poorly founded one, considering that during the french revolutionary socialist period the countries noble class were executed and also with the same degree of distaste for the noble class marx indeed did not include that class within his ideal socialist state with it based solely on his "proletarian" class stucture.

    Where as within the National Socialist state people of all classes were still evidently part of mainstream german society, the noble class still existent in the third reich years and many serving within the german armed forces.

    Anyway there is no doubt that Hilter indeed was a gifted man with many qualities of leadership however the rise of national socialism very much has it roots in the past being merely part of an evolutionary process and a reaction to the treaty of versailles.
    "Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
    and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life."
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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Re: Would There have Been N-S Without Hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by prussian25_au
    Would there have been National Socialism without hitler?

    hmmm hard question to answer, I would say both yes & no, it could have went many ways, but speculation on such a scenario is illrelevent.
    I disagree; it is relevant to the position of N-S in a post-Hitler world.

    What most people do not realise is that the National Socialist state was modelled in a lot of ways (not all) around the past empire, a good example is Kulturkaammp (German cultural law) .
    Do you mean the Kulturkampf?
    I thought that this was related to the conflict between the Protestant Prussians and Roman Catholicism ,and therefore not a feature of N-S which sought to unite all confessions.
    If you mean something else, then please explain.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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