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Thread: European Neanderthals Were On the Verge of Extinction Even Before the Arrival of Modern Humans

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    European Neanderthals Were On the Verge of Extinction Even Before the Arrival of Modern Humans

    New findings from an international team of researchers show that most Neanderthals in Europe died off around 50,000 years ago. The previously held view of a Europe populated by a stable Neanderthal population for hundreds of thousands of years up until modern humans arrived must therefore be revised.


    Teeth from a Neanderthal boy, Northern Spain.

    This new perspective on the Neanderthals comes from a study of ancient DNA published February 25 in Molecular Biology and Evolution.

    The results indicate that most Neanderthals in Europe died off as early as 50,000 years ago. After that, a small group of Neanderthals recolonised central and western Europe, where they survived for another 10,000 years before modern humans entered the picture.

    The study is the result of an international project led by Swedish and Spanish researchers in Uppsala, Stockholm and Madrid.

    “The fact that Neanderthals in Europe were nearly extinct, but then recovered, and that all this took place long before they came into contact with modern humans came as a complete surprise to us. This indicates that the Neanderthals may have been more sensitive to the dramatic climate changes that took place in the last Ice Age than was previously thought”, says Love Dalén, associate professor at the Swedish Museum of Natural History in Stockholm.

    In connection with work on DNA from Neanderthal fossils in Northern Spain, the researchers noted that the genetic variation among European Neanderthals was extremely limited during the last ten thousand years before the Neanderthals disappeared.

    Older European Neanderthal fossils, as well as fossils from Asia, had much greater genetic variation, on par with the amount of variation that might be expected from a species that had been abundant in an area for a long period of time. “The amount of genetic variation in geologically older Neanderthals as well as in Asian Neanderthals was just as great as in modern humans as a species, whereas the variation among later European Neanderthals was not even as high as that of modern humans in Iceland”, says Anders Götherström, associate professor at Uppsala University.

    The results presented in the study are based entirely on severely degraded DNA, and the analyses have therefore required both advanced laboratory and computational methods. The research team has involved experts from a number of countries, including statisticians, experts on modern DNA sequencing and paleoanthropologists from Denmark, Spain and the US.

    Only when all members of the international research team had reviewed the findings could they feel certain that the available genetic data actually reveals an important and previously unknown part of Neanderthal history. “This type of interdisciplinary study is extremely valuable in advancing research about our evolutionary history. DNA from prehistoric people has led to a number of unexpected findings in recent years, and it will be really exciting to see what further discoveries are made in the coming years”, says Juan Luis Arsuaga, professor of human paleontology at the Universidad Complutense of Madrid.
    Source http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0225110942.htm

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    Hunter Killers

    Just saw another great program on the National Geographic channel. It was mostly about Homo Erectus. Erectus lived side by side with another hominid by the name of Austropithicus Robustus. Robustus was a massive hominid, with a large bony plate coming off the back of his skull. A massive trapezius muscle attached to it. His neck was estimated at 32". He was massively built with bones the thickness of modern weightlifters. You would think he would be perfect for surviving in Africa. No, he was prey for Homo Erectus. Erectus hunted and killed him for food. Bones of Robustus were found in the fire pits of Homo Erectus.

    Archeologists think that Cro Magnon man did the same thing to Neanderthals. They were easy prey in a cold and harsh climate. They were believed to lived in the same area of Europe for no more than 300 years. During that time Cro Magnons hunted and killed every one they could find.

    It has also been recently discovered that Neanderthals could barely talk. Examination of Neanderthal remains and a study of their genome shows that their vocal cords were crude compared to modern humans. They could only form simple words and could not have developed a complex language.

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    ^ Halldorr, that's all very interesting. Can you provide us with any links to the relevant websites/articles?
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Other than the Nat Geo program that was on about 2 weeks ago, the rest of the articles I saw were on the internet. I don't have any links to them. There are many articles on the Neanderthals after their genome project was completed. The main conclusion as that their genetic sequence falls outside of the range of genetic variation in modern humans. In a cold and harsh climate where food was difficult to come by, it was much easier to kill a Neanderthal to provide food for the family group than to try and bring down a wooly mammoth. As soon as Neanderthals came into contact with Cro Magnons they dissappeared within 300 years. Do you get the National Geographic channel in Ireland?

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    You can get National Geographic channel in Ireland if you have cable (which I don't).

    Anyway the idea that the Neanderthals died out within 300 years of contacting modern humans is very different from figure of the several thousand years of co-habitation between modern humans and Neanderthals that is normally quoted.

    Neanderthals and modern humans coexisted in Europe for several thousand years, but the duration of this period is uncertain.[2] Modern humans may have first migrated to Europe 40–43,000 years ago,[3] and Neanderthals may have lived as recently as 24,000 years ago in refugia on the south coast of the Iberian peninsula such as Gorham's Cave.[4][5] Inter-stratification of Neanderthal and modern human remains has been suggested,[6] but is disputed.[7]
    Source.



    There is recent genetic evidence that a small but significant level of interbreeding took place between neanderthals and modern humans. Somewhere between 1 and 4% of the genome of all non-African people is neanderthal today;

    Genetic studies indicate some form of hybridization between archaic humans and modern humans had taken place after modern humans emerged from Africa. An estimated 1 to 4 percent of the DNA in Europeans and Asians (i.e. French, Chinese and Papua probands) is non-modern, and shared with ancient Neanderthal DNA rather than with sub-Saharan Africans (i.e. Yoruba and San probands).[18]
    Source.

    Was this the National Geographic program you were referring to?

    Did we kill the Neanderthals?


    If so it was made in 2008, well before the evidence of interbreeding between modern humans and neanderthals came to light.

    Of course none of this means that the Neanderthals were not hunted to extinction. Modern humans might have bread with them in some places and warred with them in others. However, the evidence I've seen seems to indicate a much longer period of interaction than a few hundred years and so far I have not seen any evidence of Neanderthal bones at Cro-Magnon caves or camp sites
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    I object to the thread title. All modern humans of the non negroid variety are, as the previous poster said, part neanderthal. I have seen reports that white people are about 4 percent neanderthal and asians are about two percent. Let's talk about the white folks now.

    Four percent is 1/25th. That is about half way between 1/16 and 1/32. So if one of your great great grandparents was irish and one of your great great great grandparents was irish, you would be about the same amount of irish as white folks are neanderthal.

    And if you lived in North America you would march in the St Patrick's day parade with a "Kiss me I'm Irish" button.

    That is not an insignificant amount. Up until the 80's in Louisiana, that much negroid blood would have meant that your birth certificate would list you as "negro".

    I would postulate that the reason everybody else on earth is so much more highly advanced than the negroids, yes, even the red Indians, is that that they have a bit of neanderthal in them, and the whites have the most. I would further postulate that one cannot speak of modern humans without speaking of the people who are hybrids of homo sapiens sapiens and neanderthals. The pure blood homo sapiens sapiens stayed in Africa. You really want to call THEM modern humans? The little bit of neanderthal probably activated something in the homo sapiens which caused them to rise above the level of hunter gatherers, which they had been for over 100,000 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    You can get National Geographic channel in Ireland if you have cable (which I don't).

    Anyway the idea that the Neanderthals died out within 300 years of contacting modern humans is very different from figure of the several thousand years of co-habitation between modern humans and Neanderthals that is normally quoted.






    There is recent genetic evidence that a small but significant level of interbreeding took place between neanderthals and modern humans. Somewhere between 1 and 4% of the genome of all non-African people is neanderthal today;




    Was this the National Geographic program you were referring to?

    Did we kill the Neanderthals?


    If so it was made in 2008, well before the evidence of interbreeding between modern humans and neanderthals came to light.

    Of course none of this means that the Neanderthals were not hunted to extinction. Modern humans might have bread with them in some places and warred with them in others. However, the evidence I've seen seems to indicate a much longer period of interaction than a few hundred years and so far I have not seen any evidence of Neanderthal bones at Cro-Magnon caves or camp sites
    That was not the Nat Geo program I saw. The one I saw was almost entirely concerned with Homo Erectus. The other information about the Neanderthals I saw was on the internet. That video started off good but degenerated into speculation and opinion by that narrator in the last half of the video. With the completion of the Neanderthal genome project all previous speculation and opinion is out the window. That info that I gave in my last post about the Neanderthal genetic sequence falling outside of the range of the genetic variation in modern humans means that Neanderthals were definitely a separate species and they were not homo sapiens ancestors and that there was no interbreeding among European populations.
    I have seen that 300 year or less number in 2 different articles. It would be almost impossible to find Cro Magnon man's fire pits where they cooked Neanderthals in such a short time period.
    There was a population of Homo sapiens in the middle east that were believed to have interbred with Neanderthals some 50,000 years ago, but they were not living in Europe.
    I don't think Nat Geo programs are on You -Tube. If so they were pirated. They have copy rights on these shows and you have to pay to acquire them

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    I would have to disagree with Schnadelbach's post. All modern humans are not part Neanderthal. The rest of the post is confusing and I can't figure out what point he is trying to make. It is obvious this is just an opinion with little research to back it up.

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    There's ample evidence that non-African modern humans have ~4% Neanderthal genes. Just take a google search and you'll be served, there are also some threads here about this.

    According to the OoA theory, "modern human" was obviously very agile and wandered basically all around the globe, and everywhere he came, he interbred with already present human populations (<---!!!). Who, according to other studies, dont differ with their genoms any more than Neanderthals do from today living humans. So it's save to assume that a multiregional development still would not produce large genetic differences (we share some ~98,8% of our genom with chimps, more than 60% with plants, so it really doesnt say that much).

    Whether modern human was that super-agile wanderer or not, the previously present human populations in Africa are pygmies and other, much more primitive human development states, which was a sure way down on the genetic quality ladder. What's more, there seems to be evidence that Blacks interbred not only with primitive humans, but also with great apes (gorillas etc), probably as recent as 30,000 years. Which would explain their pitch black skin, among other things.

    In turn this raises the question, why should "modern humans", those that went out of Africa and immediately became white (or yellow, or olive), be thought of as black? From more honest reconstructions of Neanderthals based on evidence, we know that they have been just as white as we are. They were not quite as primitive as they're portrait, specially in more recent reconstructions. But since the OoA theory breaks apart under the weight of evidence for a multiregional development, the try to keep up the sermon that "somewhere under our skin we're all blacks too", the primitivisation becomes more and more ridiculous.

    Anyway, a last point to consider in the original thread context, according to the Kurgan hypothesis and the general human migration hypothesis, Indo-Europeans originated in the Caucasus region, north of the Black Sea in the fertile regions there, the groups splitted, some went east into India, some went west through the Siberian taigas, some more straight through and into Europe, about max 10K years ago. By that time, there have been no Neanderthals anymore for like 20K years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halldorr View Post
    I would have to disagree with Schnadelbach's post. All modern humans are not part Neanderthal. The rest of the post is confusing and I can't figure out what point he is trying to make. It is obvious this is just an opinion with little research to back it up.
    Thank you, Velvet.
    Halldorr, I am trying to make the point that modern humans, everybody that is not a negro, is both homo sapians and neanderthal, and that possibly the combination of the two is greater than the sum of it's parts. As to it being an opinion, I admitted at the outset that what I say is speculative. I said, "I would postulate". That means that I am not laying down the law like Moses coming down from Sinai. It means "(logic) a proposition that is accepted as true in order to provide a basis for logical reasoning". (http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/postulate.htm) It doesn't mean that it is necessarily true. It is another way of saying "for the sake of argument".
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