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Thread: Faked Literature About NS Germany

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    Senior Member SaxonPagan's Avatar
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    Faked Literature About NS Germany

    I'd like the opinions of others as to whether the following can be considered reliable ...

    Hitler's Second Book
    The Goebbels Diaries
    Hitler's Political Testament
    Hitler's Table Talk
    The Wannsee Protocol

    I've seen their authenticity questioned in various places and am just wondering if anyone has any useful input to offer here.

    It has been established beyond any reasonable doubt, certainly as far as I'm concerned, that the Anne Frank Diary is a hoax and I can still remember all that fuss we had with the "Hitler Diaries" in the 1980's (until they were exposed by David Irving as a fraud).

    Please note that I'm not necessarily claiming that the works/documents on the above list have been invented but are they still in their original state, as written, or manipulated for political purposes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godwinson View Post
    I'd like the opinions of others as to whether the following can be considered reliable ...

    Hitler's Second Book
    The Goebbels Diaries
    Hitler's Political Testament
    Hitler's Table Talk
    The Wannsee Protocol

    I've seen their authenticity questioned in various places and am just wondering if anyone has any useful input to offer here.

    It has been established beyond any reasonable doubt, certainly as far as I'm concerned, that the Anne Frank Diary is a hoax and I can still remember all that fuss we had with the "Hitler Diaries" in the 1980's (until they were exposed by David Irving as a fraud).

    Please note that I'm not necessarily claiming that the works/documents on the above list have been invented but are they still in their original state, as written, or manipulated for political purposes?
    My take on the so-called "Zweites Buch" is here.

    NS Reading List
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=1122632

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    Senior Member Sigyn's Avatar
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    Since I've studied the WW2 period of history in university and looked at some of the books Godwinson mentioned, I'd add my own input to this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Godwinson View Post
    The Goebbels Diaries
    Probably a fake. Goebbels would've left his diaries in the destroyed Berlin bunker, just so the right person could happen find them in the rubble? Not likely.

    Hitler's Political Testament
    I'm not sure about that one, to be honest. Probably some of it is authentic, but it's very likely that it's been changed and manipulated after the war.

    Hitler's Table Talk
    This one is authentic. David Irving had verified that it's the real thing.

    (It's also a good book to read if you want an insight into the sometimes intelligent, sometimes very bizarre mind of Hitler. Apparently, Hitler wanted to publish an autobiography at some point, which is why they transcribed some of his private conversations and they ended up as "Hitler's Table Talk.")

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    Since I've studied the WW2 period of history in university and looked at some of the books Godwinson mentioned, I'd add my own input to this thread:


    Probably a fake. Goebbels would've left his diaries in the destroyed Berlin bunker, just so the right person could happen find them in the rubble? Not likely.


    I'm not sure about that one, to be honest. Probably some of it is authentic, but it's very likely that it's been changed and manipulated after the war.


    This one is authentic. David Irving had verified that it's the real thing.

    (It's also a good book to read if you want an insight into the sometimes intelligent, sometimes very bizarre mind of Hitler. Apparently, Hitler wanted to publish an autobiography at some point, which is why they transcribed some of his private conversations and they ended up as "Hitler's Table Talk.")
    Do you own or have read any of the stuff you espouse your opinion on here?



    I'd like the opinions of others as to whether the following can be considered reliable ...

    Hitler's Second Book
    The Goebbels Diaries
    Hitler's Political Testament
    Hitler's Table Talk
    The Wannsee Protocol

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    Senior Member Sigyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCP3 View Post
    Do you own or have read any of the stuff you espouse your opinion on here?
    I've read the three things which I did espouse my opinion on, yes. That's why I didn't give my opinion on whether Hitler's Second Book is true or not, because I haven't read it yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    I've read the three things which I did espouse my opinion on, yes. That's why I didn't give my opinion on whether Hitler's Second Book is true or not, because I haven't read it yet.
    The English language books?

    Or the German original books, source material?

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    Senior Member SaxonPagan's Avatar
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    Thanks for your thoughts on the Second Book, MCP3.

    As you know, I attach great weight to your opinions on such matters and, in this instance, they coincide almost exactly with my own. I've always felt that the 'Second Book' was little more than post-war propaganda, detailing all the dreadfuless that Hitler had planned to inflict upon the USA.

    I think everything points towards it being a disinformation tool used to justify US involvement in the war a posteriori, in a similar way to the Holocaust™ myth except that the latter deals with fictitious events that had supposedly already taken place. In this respect, they complement each other perfectly!

    Sigyn, I also share your views about the Goebbels Diaries because the way in which they were discovered smacks of more of a Hollywood script (and we all know who controls Hollywood!) than a plausible explanation of how they came to light.

    However, I'm not saying that Goebbels never kept diaries. I'm pretty sure he did and it's quite possible that they turned up after the war, but whether the originals have ever been published untouched is a matter of great debate. Apparently, they were in Russian hands for quite some time so that in itself should set off some alarm bells

    As for 'Hitler's Table Talk', I thought David Irving had dismissed this but I must go to his website and have a check ... okay, here is an interesting (but rather complex!) account ...

    http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/Hitler/Law200603.html

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    The fact that no one has really looked into whether those documents are real or not is a pretty good indication of how little the truth matters to the majority of people who study the Third Reich.

    There is an official myth; anything that conforms to the myth is true, anything that doesn't is untrue, no matter how trivial. As an example, everyone knows swing music was banned and that the Volksempfänger was rigged to only recieve official stations. I had accepted them as true because it seemed far too trivial a matter to lie about. However, it turns out that they were complete lies. It has got to the point that I don't really believe anything anyone says about that period of history unless I've checked it out myself from primary sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godwinson View Post
    Thanks for your thoughts on the Second Book, MCP3.

    As you know, I attach great weight to your opinions on such matters and, in this instance, they coincide almost exactly with my own. I've always felt that the 'Second Book' was little more than post-war propaganda, detailing all the dreadfuless that Hitler had planned to inflict upon the USA.
    And he did all this, according to the book legend, in 1928 when the NSDAP was a micro party with only one mandate in the Reichstag (not Hitler himself as he was technically still Austrian).


    Quote Originally Posted by Godwinson View Post
    I think everything points towards it being a disinformation tool used to justify US involvement in the war a posteriori, in a similar way to the Holocaust™ myth except that the latter deals with fictitious events that had supposedly already taken place. In this respect, they complement each other perfectly!

    Sigyn, I also share your views about the Goebbels Diaries because the way in which they were discovered smacks of more of a Hollywood script (and we all know who controls Hollywood!) than a plausible explanation of how they came to light.

    However, I'm not saying that Goebbels never kept diaries. I'm pretty sure he did and it's quite possible that they turned up after the war, but whether the originals have ever been published untouched is a matter of great debate. Apparently, they were in Russian hands for quite some time so that in itself should set off some alarm bells

    As for 'Hitler's Table Talk', I thought David Irving had dismissed this but I must go to his website and have a check ... okay, here is an interesting (but rather complex!) account ...

    http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/Hitler/Law200603.html
    Well, Godwinson, first of all i assume you are discussing the English language editions of these books. We had our little disputes in the past about the authenticity and the content of the English language edition (s) of the Goebbels diaries here and of the Trevor Roper edited English Table Talks.

    Here the German editions are at times different in content and text, and in case of the English Table Talks, it contains (provable !) entries which do not exist in the stated German Table Talks 1941-42 (Picker) and Heim's Monologues 1941-44. Notice that the Trevor Roper edited English Table Talks 1941-44 claim to be a mix of the these two German books and the supposed "Last Testament" (also by Roper).

    David Irving indirectly confirms that there is a problem with the English language edition of these materials (as there are with almost all English language books, material or translations of Third Reich related issues---as this is up to the day subject of propaganda of the current regimes---therefor any available publication may be "fixed" (or not) for the needs of the establishment and the prevalent liberal-democratic ideology of "The West".)

    On the site you linked Irving writes:
    IS the book commonly know in the English-speaking world as the Hitler's Table Talk an English translation of François Genoud's French text? And how reliable is it?
    "English-speaking world"---is the keyword.

    But i think we agree on the following issue yet, namely
    Hitler's Second Book
    The Goebbels Diaries
    Hitler's Political Testament
    Hitler's Table Talk
    The Wannsee Protocol
    red= definite fake

    are in both German and English language editions fraud---because they were written AFTER the war.

    I would like to clarify that before going over to the other three.

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    Senior Member SaxonPagan's Avatar
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    Here the German editions are at times different in content and text, and in case of the English Table Talks, it contains (provable !) entries which do not exist in the stated German Table Talks 1941-42 (Picker) and Heim's Monologues 1941-44. Notice that the Trevor Roper edited English Table Talks 1941-44 claim to be a mix of the these two German books and the supposed "Last Testament" (also by Roper).
    Thanks for this info, MCP3!

    So, we already have 2 out of 5 on my original list that that are definitely invented - I wouldn't argue in either case - and the 'Table Talks' are highly dubious because they were most probably written after the war, right? As if that were not enough, you're also saying that the English versions, written by Hugh Trevor-Roper, contain additions to the text that did not appear in the first (German) editions?

    It seems clear to me that HTR is just an Establishment (pseudo-)historian with a fixed agenda and I don't think his distortions of the truth can simply be attributed to the language barrier. I'm sure it's far more cynical and deliberate than that!

    David Irving also mentions 'Hitler's Last Testament' by HTR which was allegedly based on doctored documents supplied to him by a certain François Genoud. I find all that stuff about Giroud insisting on them being translated from French a bit confusing TBH but I did like the part where he confessed to having written a lot of the notes himself and then justifying it on the basis of "That is surely what Hitler would have said."

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