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Thread: Who Created the Universe?

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    Senior Member KveldulfR's Avatar
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    Who Created the Universe?

    I know the Ginnungagap story. I know Odin slew Ymir and the rest of it. I know we all, including the Gods, are subject to the Norns, but did this universe just pop out of nowhere? Didn't there have to be a creator? Even the Norns must be subject to some other force.
    -Fortune favors the bold, so act deliberately and without fear and the universe will reward you.

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    It depends on how you define "creation". In contrast to Christian creation Germanic paganism considers the universe to be eternal. There has never been a creation out of nothing. The same can be seen in Greek philosophy and other indo-european paganisms. What is called "creation" mostly refers to bringing order to chaos and this is what the Gods did. The Gods ordered what has always been. This doesn't necessarily mean that there was a temporal ordering coinciding with some kind of temporal coming into existence of the Gods. As the pagan philosopher Sallustius explains, the Gods are eternal and so is their "creation". They never actually created but their creation exists because they exist in the same way there is light because the sun exists. In this way the myths which speak of an ordering of the chaos by the Gods rather reveal certain metaphysical truths than historic events. When the Gods created/ordered out of Ymir this is mythically depicted as something that happened within a certain timeframe. It tells us that the Gods were before the creation. What it actually means though is that the Gods are prior to creation on a metaphysical level.
    As I said the ordering was done by the Gods and this is the only type of creation that is relevant from an exoteric point of view. One could ask the question what poses the actual origin of Being in Germanic mythology; this will probably lead to a lot of speculation though. We have only our myths to search for this and comparing Greek philosophy to Greek mythology shows that this alone is hardly enough to teach us about the true nature of Being. The neo-platonic idea of the One giving birth to the supreme God could have been part of our ancestors' worldview, but we can't be sure about that. The polarity of Niflheim and Muspelheim seems to hide some important metaphysical knowledge as well, with the combination of the female and material (Niflheim) and the male and immaterial (Muspelheim) leading to the eventual birth of Ymir. Frederik Sanders has even thought about the possibility of Surtr being the primordial Odin and Audhumla the primordial Frigga. The fact that Snorri (being the only one) also speaks of a creation of Niflheim doesn't make things much easier. This could as well reveal the idea of a metaphysical hierarchy of the two. The creation of life by the sparks coming into contact with the ice could thus be a symbol of the spiritual manifesting itself in the material.

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    Senior Member Kauz R. Waldher's Avatar
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    If anyone claims to know the answer to this question, they are arrogant and idiotic at the same time. I certainly believe a mysterious and unknownable force created the universe ... our stories are dumbed down versions of the truth. In ways that our puny human brains can understand.
    "The mystery and secret of Wotan is not that "knowledge" of him is passed along through clandestine cults or even through the re-discovery of old books and texts--but rather that such knowledge is actually encoded in a mysterious way in the DNA, in the very genetic material, of those who are descended from him." - Secret of the Gothick God of Darkness

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    Senior Member Bearkinder's Avatar
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    I seem to remember coming across a few lines that hinted that the gods actually had those above them that they revered which made the structure from which the gods wove the world.

    But it was very short and no more precise than what I just said. Whether that's actual Germanic myth or something added to appease you know who, I can't say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kauz R. Waldher
    If anyone claims to know the answer to this question, they are arrogant and idiotic at the same time. I certainly believe a mysterious and unknownable force created the universe ... our stories are dumbed down versions of the truth. In ways that our puny human brains can understand.
    In a way that is true, yet I wouldn't call them that dumbed down. They still make quite an amount of effort in discovering their hidden truths necessary, which is not something every "puny human" is capable of.

    "(...) just as the Gods have made the goods of sense common to all, but those of intellect only to the wise, so the myths state the existence of Gods to all, but who and what they are only to those who can understand."

    "Besides, to wish to teach the whole truth about the Gods to all produces contempt in the foolish, because they cannot understand, and lack of zeal in the good, whereas to conceal the truth by myths prevents the contempt of the foolish, and compels the good to practice philosophy."


    -Sallustius-

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    Senior Member KveldulfR's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Bernhard;1150728]It depends on how you define "creation". In contrast to Christian creation Germanic paganism considers the universe to be eternal. There has never been a creation out of nothing.


    Doesn't the Big Bang do away with that idea?
    -Fortune favors the bold, so act deliberately and without fear and the universe will reward you.

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    Senior Member KveldulfR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearkinder View Post
    I seem to remember coming across a few lines that hinted that the gods actually had those above them that they revered which made the structure from which the gods wove the world.

    But it was very short and no more precise than what I just said. Whether that's actual Germanic myth or something added to appease you know who, I can't say.
    Boy I'd like to get my hands on that. Have thee any idea where you saw it?
    -Fortune favors the bold, so act deliberately and without fear and the universe will reward you.

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    Senior Member Kauz R. Waldher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
    In a way that is true, yet I wouldn't call them that dumbed down. They still make quite an amount of effort in discovering their hidden truths necessary, which is not something every "puny human" is capable of.

    "(...) just as the Gods have made the goods of sense common to all, but those of intellect only to the wise, so the myths state the existence of Gods to all, but who and what they are only to those who can understand."

    "Besides, to wish to teach the whole truth about the Gods to all produces contempt in the foolish, because they cannot understand, and lack of zeal in the good, whereas to conceal the truth by myths prevents the contempt of the foolish, and compels the good to practice philosophy."


    -Sallustius-
    Yes, I agree. I also think that ritual can and will unlock some of these mysteries. You know, unlocking a sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth senses. THEN maybe the wisdom can be comprehended. And please understand, I do not think Germanic mythology is dumb. Not at all. It's crafted very artfully and it's "our's", I think it needed to be written in symbols.
    "The mystery and secret of Wotan is not that "knowledge" of him is passed along through clandestine cults or even through the re-discovery of old books and texts--but rather that such knowledge is actually encoded in a mysterious way in the DNA, in the very genetic material, of those who are descended from him." - Secret of the Gothick God of Darkness

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    Senior Member KveldulfR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kauz R. Waldher View Post
    If anyone claims to know the answer to this question, they are arrogant and idiotic at the same time. I certainly believe a mysterious and unknownable force created the universe ... our stories are dumbed down versions of the truth. In ways that our puny human brains can understand.
    I tend to agree. Although, an answer (lol..sort of) to that can be found in Christianity. This Unknowable, mysterious force reached down to mankind and made Himself known, well....as much as he wanted to make Himself known anyway.
    -Fortune favors the bold, so act deliberately and without fear and the universe will reward you.

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    Doesn't the 1st law of thermodynamics state that energy can neither be created nor destroyed only change forms?

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