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Thread: Who Created the Universe?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Feyn's Avatar
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    @ bearkinder QUOTE:"The very much lauded peer review process is partly to blame, since if a new person comes up with a new hypothesis that fit the old data and the new, they are brow-beaten by the old guard, and essentially have to fight the very people who should be the most help in advancing the science, but are too busy defending territory."
    QUOTE:"I said modern physics, and listed example of what I was talking about is more blind religion than anything, and I stand by it"


    This is exactly how this process should work, and how it always has worked ! Just look how the old guard attacked einstein and his theory of relativity. Then look how, when einstein was part of the old guard, they attacked quantum mechanics etc.etc.
    This makes a lot of sense. If they wouldnt defend the old theories with every logical argument they can think of, attack it with every "weapon" available, science would constantly run along wrong alleys, since it has accepted new theories before they where really matured and ready to be accepted. This infighting within science leads to a harsh selection, through which only the best theories come through. Less resistance leads to lesser theories so to speak.With these attacks we discover the weak points in these new theories. Of course this leads sometimes to old theories surviving too long, but better a few old and trusted theories survive too long, then a few new theories getting accepted too quick.
    We are currently at a very interesting time in physics, since we have a lot of phenomenons we can´t really explain (i just mention dark matter, dark energy, dark flow for astrophysics and partialy particle physics). Both the standard theory of particle physics and the standard theory of cosmology are starting to fall apart. That always leads to a lot of chaos, infighting between the generations and within each generation etc. But all this is a necessity to gain new knowledge. Yes this also leads to a lot of "workarounds" to tackle the current phenomenons with the old theories. Of course most of them are pure bullshit, but the scientific community is well aware of that. The point is that it is necessary bullshit, needed to really research those phenomenons. We somehow have to look at those phenomenons, research them. How can you do that, if you do not have the theories to do it ? By implementing those workarounds we begin to understand why the old theories are not able to tackle them, why they fail here. With this knowledge we can start building new hypothesis. We are currently at the stage where the first new hypothesis are implemented and researched : MOND, causal dynamic triangulation, Twister theory, M theory etc.etc.



    QUOTE:"Evolution? Do I hate" it? No. There's just not enough evidence for macro evolution to support it. Most of the latest articles I've read argue strongly for intelligent design and guidance of any such process, making it not a natural process, but a manufacture of sorts."

    First of all define macro evolution, it is a completely unscientific term. There is only ONE evolution, not 2. Those terms where invented by creationists, since they realized they had to admit that evolution is really happening. So they did what people like that always do, they moved the goal and invented the term macro evolution, instead of doing the intellectually honest thing and accept evolution. Ironically this is the very thing you accused science of doing ^^
    Now for what the latest article´s you read support : that shows that you deliberatly choose to read papers that support your position. Within the part of the scientific community, that deals with evolution, the support for creationism is below 0.1%
    As for being insulting : you started the insulting. If you don´t like it that people get pissed if you are insulting, and sometimes insult right back, you should not insult in the first place.
    You called science/scientists:"the blindest of religions" "unable to admit they are wrong" claimed they would give "evasive and vague answers" that essentiaslly boiled down to "because i said so"
    you even had the audacity to claim that most of them are not worthy to be called scientists by setting the word scientist in ""

    All our modern life we owe to science : technology, medicine, communication etc.etc. For all these achievements science does not ask that much in return. So the least science has earned is our respect. You also use every day all the perks we owe to science, but act spitefully and aggressive towards it. To me that´s pure hypocrisy ! So you really have no grounds whatsoever to complain i attacked you in this way. I simply gave you a bit of your own medicine, to show you how bitter it tastes.

    If you want a discussion on evolution/creation I am happy to have that, and i am happy to have it in a civil manner, if you act accordingly. But since that leads us too far off topic i would say we do it via mails. How would you like to start with the age of the earth ? Or would you prefer to start somewhere else ? Just send me your argument
    There won't be humans in 500 years. Enough people choke themselves when they jerk off we gave it a name. We ain't a species made to last.

    Judging by it´s name common sense must once have been a pretty common thing. When and why did that change, so it became the rare treasure it is today???

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by KveldulfR View Post
    I know the Ginnungagap story. I know Odin slew Ymir and the rest of it. I know we all, including the Gods, are subject to the Norns, but did this universe just pop out of nowhere? Didn't there have to be a creator? Even the Norns must be subject to some other force.
    Not necessarily.

    One view of Ginnungagap is that it is filled with "the All" ... everything that has happened, is happening and could conceivably happen is ALL going on in Ginnungagap all at once. Hence why the senses can't make head or tales of it, or are "deluded" by it.

    So in Ginnungagap we have infinite variables all firing off and slamming into each other all of the time. "Forms" are constantly arising out of and falling back into the Gap. In such a circumstance it is inevitable that, ultimately, a form will not only stick, but then also begin to snowball or layer ... as we see expressed in the Eddic tale.

    It IS all as the Scientists say. All of the phyiscal universe just "kinda happened".

    CREATION on the otherhand is not about snapping one's fingers and everything appearing out of nothing. This is mistaking religion for science; which always has nasty outcomes as mystery is at the heart of any religion, while certitude is more the dominion of science. Creation is a product of consciousness. And consciousness observes implicit order (in the physical universe) and then expresses it in various cultural forms, eg. that way is east, that way west, this hot, that cold, etc. The resulting cultural understanding of the nature and functioning of all existence is identical to Creation.

    As for the gods being subject to Wyrd ... Cattle die, kinsmen die, and so shall you yourself, but I know one thing that never dies, the goodly name of each man dead. The Tivar are forever.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Jamey Martin; Wednesday, June 20th, 2012 at 08:51 AM. Reason: spelling

  3. #63
    Senior Member Jens's Avatar
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    Are you ready? Here it is. Nobody actually knows. Totally beyond our capacity to know or figure out. You're welcome.
    Apfelstrudel mit Vanillesoße, yeah I said it, what are you gonna do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Are you ready? Here it is. Nobody actually knows. Totally beyond our capacity to know or figure out. You're welcome.
    Short and sweet. This is the way I figure it too. It can be fascinating to ponder the possibilities, but nobody can ever know the truth in this lifetime, no matter what intellectual knots we tie ourselves up in. It's one of those debates which goes nowhere in the end, but drags everybody the long and painful way to that destination.

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    Senior Member Bearkinder's Avatar
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    If you want to stay withing Germanic Heathenry, the answer is simple: the flows from Muspelheim and Niflheim met in Ginnungagap, and formed Ymir, and off we went.

    The real question becomes: What or who created Ginnungagap, Muspelheim and Niflheim?


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    There's always going to be debate on this topic. As humanity's knowledge of the universe increases, so does our distance of naive views that have been held by past generations of humans. I've been wrestling with the idea/ideal of a creator for some time now, and have steadily progressed from a believing Christian to a skeptical Christian to something of a deist... I think that people hold to ideas of a divine creator(s) largely out of nostalgia and a fear of the unknown (and for lack of anything else to believe).

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    Senior Member Bearkinder's Avatar
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    For a serious answer, I'd say that whatever created the beginning (back before Muspelheim or Niflheim, long before the Jotun or the gods), exists outside of the nine worlds (by definition), and outside of any other world-systems (If the nine worlds are described as the tree Yggdrasil, then the analogy follows that there's likely other trees in the forest). As such that creator is unknowable by anyone within the creation.

    Perhaps once we've advanced enough to move forward from our incarnations here, we will find out more.

    But I have this feeling that, just as our universe is a fractal design, showing similar structure as small or large as we can detect, that the "superverse" is much the same, and we will always be progressing and finding new answers and new questions at each stage.

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