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Thread: Syncretizing Christianity & Asatru

  1. #31
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    What a post Velvet!

    You hit on a few things near and dear to my heart recently.

    I'd been very interested in Norse culture for most of my life (My maternal grandmother was very much involved in it). Unfortunately, on my father's side were Germans who were German-haters. I never did get them to answer how they could hate their own people while kneeling before the very jews they constantly said how much they hated. . .

    Anyway, I've fairly recently come to the conclusion that my heathen blood and Christianity are irreconcilable. Especially was the event where I began questioning how it was they preached all these anti-heathen doctrines and then went ahead and dressed up for halloween, had christmas trees and yule logs (and called them that to boot!), Eostre egg hunts, etc. I got told to shut up and stop being divisive. One of the Deacons also began teaching about how such things were at odds with being a christian and was made to shut up about it.

    However, all of these things are natural to me. Things like turning the other cheek is foreign to me (I'm more of a "If a man slaps you on the cheek, punch him in the throat so he shall know his folly" kind of guy). "Celebrating" any culture but white culture is foreign to me. Yet, when we went on a camping trip, and I walked off on my own away from camp to drink a toast with my drinking horn, a big stink was made when a couple of the black and asian kids wanted to drink from it as well, and I wouldn't let them. I told them it's a cultural thing. I'll not participate in their cultural activities and ask them not to participate in mine. Well, the SHTF over that. Then everything invited scrutiny. "Why are you carrying a hatchet around?" Ummm, we're camping.

    No, the two cannot be successfully join without killing one or the other. If you are going to do that, then pick one of the two and go with it. Christians can't "take those things and change their meaning so they are OK." anymore than we can take christian things and "Germanicize" them and make them OK for heathens, and people need to stop trying to do so, IMO.

  2. #32
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    "But all the stolen myths and legends that were originally our heathen myths and legends, of "Jesus" and "Petrus" walking our lands and all that stuff, did corrupt our Paganism and our Culture. It used to be different gods with a wide variety of character traits that spun gracile stories, now it's just the Nazarene & friends; the whole sense of any of these myths and legends have been corrupted, our fairytales made to "christian", emptied-out bedtime stories bare of their meaning, any meaning for that matter. When we today lament about the loss of our Culture, christianity did its big part in that with greying and leveling a once vital and colorful Culture to a bleak, boring dualism of "good" vs "evil" (not that christianity would even have a proper concept of either), of reward and punishment for servitude or failing, the reduction of life itself to a punishment by god for the failure to follow the command to not eat from the tree of knowledge. This moral-made self-mutiliation itself is responsible for the dying of our Culture, of any culture it imposes itself upon, because it doesnt have use for Culture; once upon a time the custom-made virtues that served to advance life, the community, the folk, the nation, its strive for a better future based on the virtues of a folk. All smeared with "sin", with "shame", with "evil"."

    Magnificent, beautiful, perfect! This is what I have been unable to convey clearly for the last two months in multiple threads on this topic. This is a flat-out "thread ender". You truly are brilliant Velvet.
    "The mystery and secret of Wotan is not that "knowledge" of him is passed along through clandestine cults or even through the re-discovery of old books and texts--but rather that such knowledge is actually encoded in a mysterious way in the DNA, in the very genetic material, of those who are descended from him." - Secret of the Gothick God of Darkness

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  4. #34
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    Velvet, I have no idea how you got the idea that Jesus Christ is really Krishna...


    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Instead of corrupting both even more, we should rather strive for a careful seperation of Paganism and christianity. When you take away all the Germanic aspects christianity stole and claimed for itself, like all the holy days, the rites, the myths and mythologies etc, it would strip naked the deeply alien core of christianity.

    I'm all for salvaging the native-grown aspects of Christianity. One problem I see however is that tons of Heathens want to scrap anything and everything in Christianity that isn't obviously coming from Heathenry (ie. Easter, etc.). The fact of the matter, however, is that tons of great stuff was developed and evolved in Christian Europe. We can take ideas from the Christianity that developed under our cultures. I see no reason not to so long as they don't clash with the Heathen worldview. It irks me when Heathens have a knee-jerk reaction against anything they think is vaguely Christian.

    I'm a fan of Gothic architecture/cathedrals: I think they speak to the Germanic soul. They seem to be fashioned to give the impression of dark forests.

    In a similar vein, I certainly don't eschew hierarchy simply because the Church had hierarchy. It's incredibly odd that many Heathens hate hierarchy and the idea of a priesthood yet they want to reconstruct the religion of a tribal people who clearly had spiritual leaders (gothis).

    Much of Western philosophy was developed and refined in a very Christian environment. No reason why we, for instance, couldn't still use much from the ideas that were formulated. "Dogma" is another one that really riles some Heathens up. It would appear that they want everything to be based on the "you believe whatever you want, and I'll believe what I want / Let's just believe whatever" rule. Dogma forms a part of every religion.

    We must learn everything we can. It's the old "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" idea.

    Being an atheist though, velvet, I'm not sure if anything like that really matters to you though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten
    Velvet, I have no idea how you got the idea that Jesus Christ is really Krishna...
    It's one aspect in the conglomerate "character" known as "Jesus". Other main aspect is the Roman Caesar, who was deified and made per Roman Pagan law to the "savior of the Roman empire". Jesus is an invention to "unite" the chaos within the Roman empire under a "common god" to reduce inner squabble, which became threatening to the stability with the emerging "mono-theist" sects. It was never intended to replace all other religions (there have been more than 50 religions and sects, who beat their heads over who's right), it just was meant to be a "common ground" for all. And like with Caesar, it was meant for the Roman empire. Religious fanatics made it into a "real religion", based off of the Jewish OT (that was a rather widespread religion in Athens).


    Quote Originally Posted by Soten
    I'm all for salvaging the native-grown aspects of Christianity. One problem I see however is that tons of Heathens want to scrap anything and everything in Christianity that isn't obviously coming from Heathenry (ie. Easter, etc.). The fact of the matter, however, is that tons of great stuff was developed and evolved in Christian Europe. We can take ideas from the Christianity that developed under our cultures. I see no reason not to so long as they don't clash with the Heathen worldview. It irks me when Heathens have a knee-jerk reaction against anything they think is vaguely Christian.
    When one develops a felt heathen worldview, that is more than an intellectual excercise, then you simply start to react allergic to everything "truely" christian, because it becomes deeply disgusting. And one of the most disgusting thing is how christianity claims heathen things for itself and based on this then demands tolerance, because it is, after all, not so different. Those same things christianity bashes constantly though, because effectively, from their christian point of view, they remain things of worship for "Satan". It is this hypocrisy that is one of the most disgusting things of christianity. If they just had the balls to stand to their religion. But they need these things in order to not stick out as the entirely alien cult they are. They use them as camouflage to hide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten
    I'm a fan of Gothic architecture/cathedrals: I think they speak to the Germanic soul. They seem to be fashioned to give the impression of dark forests.
    Gothic architecture is first and foremost Germanic, Gothic architecture. And ironically it employs mathematics derived from the Runes. As such, of course they speak to the Germanic soul.

    When you look at churches from other parts of the world, you will find their homegrown systematics though. The Hagia Sofia in Istanbul is still an Arab building, it is essentially the prototype of a mosque.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soten
    In a similar vein, I certainly don't eschew hierarchy simply because the Church had hierarchy. It's incredibly odd that many Heathens hate hierarchy and the idea of a priesthood yet they want to reconstruct the religion of a tribal people who clearly had spiritual leaders (gothis).
    The problem lies not with hierarchy itself, but in the manner how hierarchy is built, on what it bases. Heathen kings were not hereditary kings, they were kings by merit (and when merit ran out, they also were removed), and it even happened that a king was not the military leader. They possessed a "natural authority" based on their character, not through a worthless title, or because they were the son of X.

    The heathen priesthood was carefully seperated from the political power. In christianity, the priesthood itself claimed ALL political power for itself (until the French Revolution, the Pope selected and crowned emperors).


    Quote Originally Posted by Soten
    Much of Western philosophy was developed and refined in a very Christian environment. No reason why we, for instance, couldn't still use much from the ideas that were formulated. "Dogma" is another one that really riles some Heathens up. It would appear that they want everything to be based on the "you believe whatever you want, and I'll believe what I want / Let's just believe whatever" rule. Dogma forms a part of every religion.
    This might be true, when one takes "dogma" as the "essential core". Christian dogma though is not limited to the essential core, it entails law and politics too, which imo is one reason why there are currently 3400+ officially recognised christian sects who often cant even agree on the most basic things

    The problem with "western philosophy" that developed under christianity is this wrong ideal of a "spiritual philosopher king" (I always wonder why christians are so upset about the Islamic global Caliph, the "ideal" of the Pope after all is just that), a one-for-all, for politics, for religion, for culture, for everyday life, in fact eradicating the healthy distance between everyday culture and reality and politics and religion, which though is the motor of every cultural development and growth. Western philosophy is by and large the theologist instinct that messes around with things he cannot have any clue about, but wants to submit everything under its ivory tower idealogy of an "Israel", a heavenly (not earthly) "paradise".

    There's much wrong with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soten
    We must learn everything we can. It's the old "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" idea.
    We could learn about christianity from a distance as well, without having to adopt it entirely. Just as we can learn about the Indic Vedas, Chinese Confucianism, Japanese Shintoism, we can exchange ideas. But while everyone would be up the walls about the latter, saying we cannot become Chinese or Japanese or Indian, for some reason, this objection does not exist for christianity.

    It may be due to the christian way to impose the religion right away without giving the chance to learn from a distance though that makes people think like that.

    I also dont think that philosophy is reducable to religious matters, like christianity does. Maybe sometimes the baby needs to be poured out with the bath in order to save it from the poison in the water

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten
    Being an atheist though, velvet, I'm not sure if anything like that really matters to you though.
    I think I explained that now often enough.

    I never came across a Heathen who felt "threatened" by the word atheist in my profile. That is usually reserved for christians and closet-christians. Heathenism is most of all a worldview, not a religion (in an Abrahamic sense), as such, for my worldview I dont "need" the Pagan gods. Nonetheless, they have their place in this worldview and in my life. But they are not the defining factors, or even anything like the christian "god". They dont occupy every fibre and aspect of life, and in turn, I'm not sheeple that looks for the shepherd to lead me blinded through my life. Der Gott, der Eisen wachsen liess, der wollte keine Knechte. Not servants, but like gods we are meant to be. Kauz's signature also has some truth in it, we are indeed our gods, our gods are our ancestors, they are encoded in our DNA. You dont become a Heathen, but of course, you can deny the Heathen path and heritage and become the servant of an alien god. And then you are a "theist". I am not, hence I'm an Atheist. Because I'm not the servant, the sheep of an alien god. Who on top managed to corrupt the meaning of the word god so deeply that it became a sad joke. I reject all this. And proudly.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    I never came across a Heathen who felt "threatened" by the word atheist in my profile. That is usually reserved for christians and closet-christians. Heathenism is most of all a worldview, not a religion (in an Abrahamic sense), as such, for my worldview I dont "need" the Pagan gods. Nonetheless, they have their place in this worldview and in my life. But they are not the defining factors, or even anything like the christian "god". They dont occupy every fibre and aspect of life, and in turn, I'm not sheeple that looks for the shepherd to lead me blinded through my life. Der Gott, der Eisen wachsen liess, der wollte keine Knechte. Not servants, but like gods we are meant to be. Kauz's signature also has some truth in it, we are indeed our gods, our gods are our ancestors, they are encoded in our DNA. You dont become a Heathen, but of course, you can deny the Heathen path and heritage and become the servant of an alien god. And then you are a "theist". I am not, hence I'm an Atheist. Because I'm not the servant, the sheep of an alien god. Who on top managed to corrupt the meaning of the word god so deeply that it became a sad joke. I reject all this. And proudly.
    I'm not at all "threatened" by atheism.

    However, I do think that the majority of our heathen ancestors truly believed in their Gods. I think it's more a matter of how they believed in their Gods, and I doubt it was as simple as "They are our ancestors." Tons of modern Heathens seem to have a problem with the word "Religion" as well. "In an Abrahamic sense" makes no sense, because of course a non-Abrahamic religion is not a religion in an Abrahamic sense. That doesn't mean it's not a religion. The pagan Romans, who were quite related to us, referred to their beliefs as a "religio." I think that the Heathen worldview makes zero sense unless we account for their religious views.

    When you say "I don't need the Pagan Gods" you sound like that one Icelander and his son in the Landnamabok who are called "the Godless" because they said they don't need anything from the Gods. This family was seen as quite strange by everyone else, so I think it's common sense that these people felt they needed their Gods and wanted to maintain a deep relationship with them.

    Theism nowhere entails belief in a foreign God. If you believe in a God, or Gods, you are a Theist. If you simply do not believe in any Gods whatsoever, then you are an Atheist. Being a sheep or needing to be saved has nothing to do with theism in general, and everything to do with Christianity, which is a particular theism.

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    I believe when she says "I do not NEED the Gods" she speaks like a true Heathen. With pride, strength, fearlessness and honour. No true Heathen is comfortable admitting "needing" anything. Needing is weakness. Period.
    "The mystery and secret of Wotan is not that "knowledge" of him is passed along through clandestine cults or even through the re-discovery of old books and texts--but rather that such knowledge is actually encoded in a mysterious way in the DNA, in the very genetic material, of those who are descended from him." - Secret of the Gothick God of Darkness

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kauz R. Waldher View Post
    I believe when she says "I do not NEED the Gods" she speaks like a true Heathen. With pride, strength, fearlessness and honour.
    No. She speaks like an atheist who is anti-Christian and enjoys the old mythology and culture, which is great but not exactly heathen.

    Seriously, the only historical heathens that we have any record of claiming they don't need the Gods was this one Icelander and his son. So, how can "not needing the Gods" be Heathen at all, when all heathens we know of (minus 2) apparently did need their Gods. You are putting your own conception of what it means to be "heathen" and projecting it on everything we really do know about them.


    No true Heathen is comfortable admitting "needing" anything. Needing is weakness. Period.
    I need oxygen.

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    "Seriously, the only historical heathens that we have any record of claiming they don't need the Gods was this one Icelander and his son. So, how can "not needing the Gods" be Heathen at all, when all heathens we know of (minus 2) apparently did need their Gods. You are putting your own conception of what it means to be "heathen" and projecting it on everything we really do know about them."

    So you think we have to precisely mimick the old path? People evolve, people change, after all this time we're destined to evolve ... staying the same wouldn't be very wise now would it? And don't forget, what we do know for a supposed "fact" could very well be manipulated and influenced by christianity and Rome. We have to rely on an inner-intuition. Wotan is a god, was a man, and represents the Germanic Heathen collective subconscious. I don't think that you're practicing the EXACT Catholicism of 2,000 years ago, now are you? No. Because even as a Traditionalist, you're not going to dismiss what mankind has learned that is productive or "good" since that time. If we stay obedient and subservient and simply bow down or fear our Gods ... we never transcend our old inner selves. The wisdom lies in the past, the means to achieve inner enlightenment ... but there IS new knowledge (gnosis) that is useful.
    "The mystery and secret of Wotan is not that "knowledge" of him is passed along through clandestine cults or even through the re-discovery of old books and texts--but rather that such knowledge is actually encoded in a mysterious way in the DNA, in the very genetic material, of those who are descended from him." - Secret of the Gothick God of Darkness

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten
    I'm not at all "threatened" by atheism.
    Good

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten
    However, I do think that the majority of our heathen ancestors truly believed in their Gods. I think it's more a matter of how they believed in their Gods, and I doubt it was as simple as "They are our ancestors."
    But it is an essential part of it. And then the very concept of belief is not needed, because they are facts, we know because we are facts. We are here because 'divine' ancestors helped shaping us, our existence, our characters, our goals, our future. Our belief should be directed towards what they gave us (recognition, logic, knowledge, wisdom), in what they teached us (tools to gather more of each), not towards their personalities itself. Our service should be directed into upholding and furthering each of those, not towards a personality cult that gets stuck in a random point in time and then even has the ability to deny furthering, development.

    Géat, the word from which god is derived, is an ancestor, the first known and remembered ancestor, also of Odin, but likewise not the first and only ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten
    Tons of modern Heathens seem to have a problem with the word "Religion" as well. "In an Abrahamic sense" makes no sense, because of course a non-Abrahamic religion is not a religion in an Abrahamic sense. That doesn't mean it's not a religion. The pagan Romans, who were quite related to us, referred to their beliefs as a "religio." I think that the Heathen worldview makes zero sense unless we account for their religious views.
    Re-ligio, from lex law and re "back(wards)". Religio(n) is indeed itself a foreign concept. We called our "religio" Siðr, custom. The choice of word, of the concept tells a lot in itself about how people perceived it.

    I already also said before that Cult and Culture are not by accident the "same" word, they stem from the same root, both linguistically and conceptwise. You are right that both belongs together, and that the heathen worldview indeed requires the understanding and recognition of the Cult, from which Culture develops, is fuelled by, and on whose Siðr (the English 'Custom' lacks a bit the deeper meaning of this word, the German 'Sitte' has this connotation of "what is good", "positive", "desireable" etc) both live, strive on, are held up. Still the seperation, the understanding that Cult and Siðr are not the same thing, should not be eradicated. The word "religion", as the (unchangeable, unquestionable) "law of god" implies that both is the same, which it is not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soten
    When you say "I don't need the Pagan Gods" you sound like that one Icelander and his son in the Landnamabok who are called "the Godless" because they said they don't need anything from the Gods. This family was seen as quite strange by everyone else, so I think it's common sense that these people felt they needed their Gods and wanted to maintain a deep relationship with them.
    I said:
    "...for my worldview I dont "need" the Pagan gods. Nonetheless, they have their place in this worldview and in my life." and further down: "you dont become heathen", because the gods are encoded in your DNA.

    The whole paragraph belongs together. When you start picking it apart and then want to construct an "accusal" of an out of context part of a sentence, you only make a fool of yourself. There's a reason why I put "need" into marks, because of course they are an inseperable part of the whole.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soten
    Theism nowhere entails belief in a foreign God. If you believe in a God, or Gods, you are a Theist. If you simply do not believe in any Gods whatsoever, then you are an Atheist. Being a sheep or needing to be saved has nothing to do with theism in general, and everything to do with Christianity, which is a particular theism.
    The history of the word "deos" (Greek; singular) does indeed contain the concept of monotheism (it's a concept born in the era of Athens Stoism, which indeed was already heavily penetrated with Semitic ideas; the Semites had already deicided their pantheon of gods and replaced it with a now deified lesser demon: YHWE), the meaning shifted from a pantheon of many gods to the conception of a "main god" (Zeus), of an "omni-potent god" because he occupied all "power" that formerly was shared among the pantheon of gods, and the ancestors of those gods. Prometheus though was no Olympic god, he was a Titan. The Light he gave to mankind is an archaic concept, but archaic doesnt mean outdated, and Zeus cannot claim Light and the beginning of civilisation for himself, because he himself is a product of that. The idea of mono-theism though makes exactly that, and turns reality fundamentally upside down. To the point that it changes perception.

    The Germanic pantheon did not know this confusion. Loki was a Giant, though accepted into the Æsir family, in fact, he was an important connector, he helped creating the worlds, he's father (or mother) of other important figures such as Hel and Odin's horse, Odin himself is a descendent of Giants, the Runic wisdom is a Giant wisdom (Mimir), and the Æsir arent the only ones, there are the Vanir Freya, Freyr, Njörd, Jord etc. What you see is an evolution, a development, not a fixed "word of (one) god", not unchangeable, not "backwards" and "dependent" on this one god. All this doesnt exist in the Germanic pantheon, in the Germanic Siðr, in the Germanic reality.

    Just as you assume that a "godless" person would be perceived as strange, the idea of one single god, as this "absolutism", the be-all and end-all of the divine, was for sure extremely strange to our ancestors, it was simply absurd.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

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