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Thread: Did Stone Age 'Globalisation' Kill Off The Neanderthals?

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    Did Stone Age 'Globalisation' Kill Off The Neanderthals?




    ^ Taken from the Daily Express, November 18th 2011.

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    Just curious, what exactly is the gene that many Europeans have which comes from Neanderthals? I've seen a reconstruction of a Neanderthal, and I really don't think I look anything like that (or would marry someone who does).

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    Quote Originally Posted by heimweard View Post
    Just curious, what exactly is the gene that many Europeans have which comes from Neanderthals? I've seen a reconstruction of a Neanderthal, and I really don't think I look anything like that (or would marry someone who does).
    Europeans have a mean of 1-4% neanderthal DNA. It's not neccessarily bad as the Neanderthal had evolved in a cold northern hemisphere climate for a long time and as such had developed many useful alleles and were likely very intelligent and capable to deal with ice ages/ cold winter planning and technology.

    They say pure Neanderthals died out 30,000 years ago based on fossil evidence, but what happened between 30,000 years ago (100% neanderthal DNA types) and modern day europe (1-4% DNA) is still up for research and must take into account ice ages (that shifted populations around and destroys fossil evidence). In other words what percentage of neanderthal DNA is in people from say 10,000 years ago? I think its more complex than has been explained by the MSM but very dificult to prove either way because its awfully difficult to extract old DNA from fossils and again the ice ages may have obliterated much evidence and fossils.

    One of the researchers at the Max Plank institute allegedly stated semitic people have a much higher percentage of neanderthal DNA around 10-20% and controversial author Michael Bradley speculates this is the reason the middle east is highly aggressive, possibly monotheist and fundamental in its religous values and markedly sexual dimorph in its physiology.

    Many Neanderthal articles focus on 'europe' and interbreeding or connect 'all areas outside of sub-saharan africa' with interbreeding however most of the maps they use pin point the hotspot area of interbreeding being around Israel...the bottle neck between africa, asia and europe and an obviously significant area in world history. Many groups moved through that area on route to other places but what about the populations of people who stayed and occupied those areas of the middle east and central europe? Ive never seen comprehensive DNA tests from this alleged hotspot interbreeding area (I can guess why!!!) and the middle east in general. It seems to me the further away from the middle east and Neanderthal 'hot spot' interbreeding area one moves the less aggressive and less monotheist it's people. Western europeans may actually have rather small amounts of Neanderthal DNA, whereas central european and middle eastern areas (where so many wars are fought and maps constantly change) could have a much higher percentage of Neanderthal DNA.

    It's likely the last 2 ice ages had a huge impact on Neanderthals pushing them south out of northern and western europe and so the pockets of them left when 'modern humans' arrived from the south were focussed around the Caucasus/middle east mountain ranges as well as other refuge areas such as Gibralter and the european alps. Perhaps there is a correlation between coastal/plains europeans and mountain europeans that relates to a Neanderthal legacy (ie coastal + plains europeans are taller, have high straight foreheads - whereas mountainous europeans are shorter, stockier, hairy and with more sloping foreheadeds and robust features).

    From my studies in anthropology I swear Ive met several people who have extremely strong neanderthal physical traits and do not resemble the classic 'cro-mag'/homo sapien sapien type of european. But I would need genome evidence to be sure of their Neanderthal DNA %.










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    Senior Member Karpaten Befreier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonwind View Post
    Europeans have a mean of 1-4% neanderthal DNA. It's not neccessarily bad as the Neanderthal had evolved in a cold northern hemisphere climate for a long time and as such had developed many useful alleles and were likely very intelligent and capable to deal with ice ages/ cold winter planning and technology.

    They say pure Neanderthals died out 30,000 years ago based on fossil evidence, but what happened between 30,000 years ago (100% neanderthal DNA types) and modern day europe (1-4% DNA) is still up for research and must take into account ice ages (that shifted populations around and destroys fossil evidence). In other words what percentage of neanderthal DNA is in people from say 10,000 years ago? I think its more complex than has been explained by the MSM but very dificult to prove either way because its awfully difficult to extract old DNA from fossils and again the ice ages may have obliterated much evidence and fossils.

    One of the researchers at the Max Plank institute allegedly stated semitic people have a much higher percentage of neanderthal DNA around 10-20% and controversial author Michael Bradley speculates this is the reason the middle east is highly aggressive, possibly monotheist and fundamental in its religous values and markedly sexual dimorph in its physiology.

    Many Neanderthal articles focus on 'europe' and interbreeding or connect 'all areas outside of sub-saharan africa' with interbreeding however most of the maps they use pin point the hotspot area of interbreeding being around Israel...the bottle neck between africa, asia and europe and an obviously significant area in world history. Many groups moved through that area on route to other places but what about the populations of people who stayed and occupied those areas of the middle east and central europe? Ive never seen comprehensive DNA tests from this alleged hotspot interbreeding area (I can guess why!!!) and the middle east in general. It seems to me the further away from the middle east and Neanderthal 'hot spot' interbreeding area one moves the less aggressive and less monotheist it's people. Western europeans may actually have rather small amounts of Neanderthal DNA, whereas central european and middle eastern areas (where so many wars are fought and maps constantly change) could have a much higher percentage of Neanderthal DNA.

    It's likely the last 2 ice ages had a huge impact on Neanderthals pushing them south out of northern and western europe and so the pockets of them left when 'modern humans' arrived from the south were focussed around the Caucasus/middle east mountain ranges as well as other refuge areas such as Gibralter and the european alps. Perhaps there is a correlation between coastal/plains europeans and mountain europeans that relates to a Neanderthal legacy (ie coastal + plains europeans are taller, have high straight foreheads - whereas mountainous europeans are shorter, stockier, hairy and with more sloping foreheadeds and robust features).

    From my studies in anthropology I swear Ive met several people who have extremely strong neanderthal physical traits and do not resemble the classic 'cro-mag'/homo sapien sapien type of european. But I would need genome evidence to be sure of their Neanderthal DNA %.
    So, which people would you say have the most Neanderthal input? I saw a documentary on this, and the last Neanderthals were supposed to die out somewhere in the Iberian peninsula. Would you say the Spanish and Portuguese have the most of it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by heimweard View Post
    So, which people would you say have the most Neanderthal input? I saw a documentary on this, and the last Neanderthals were supposed to die out somewhere in the Iberian peninsula. Would you say the Spanish and Portuguese have the most of it?
    It has not been revealed officially yet (and may never be because its highly controversial!). The Max Planck institue only revealed a mean average for all populations outside of sub-saharan Africa. One of the assistant researchers from the Neanderthal genome project at Max Planck institute revealed on german TV that Semitic people (ie Arabs and Jews form the middle east) had a higher percentage of '10-20%' - and this may help explain the historic hatred between the two groups as blood brothers and why that area is so aggressive - but the program was pulled and I haven't been able to find a copy of it anywhere or verify whether this is in fact true. It does however make sense though because as I explained above, the area around Israel (where neanderthal remains have been found) is noted as the original interbreeding hotspot. Given the fact that many other DNA testing has revealed many modern day populations often have the closest DNA match to archaic populations in the exact same geographical area it would be interesting to know DNA results from people who have lived in that area of the middle east in regards to Neanderthal DNA. Older neanderthal remains found in western europe, like the famous neander valley in germany, are generally from much older dates. Due to ice ages pushing them southward or wiping them out completely there may never have been any contact between neanderthal and modern humans in those parts of europe simply because there were no or very few neanderthals left there. The science at this stage all points to the middle east as the area where the main gene flow occurred and this may be due to that area being the only geographical area the neanderthals were able to occupy in any sort of population due to extreme ice age conditions further north. Its also an area that had an overlap of neanderthal and human occupation where modern human remains have been found underneath neaderthal remains.

    It seems different clusters of Neanderthal genes are found in different non-African human populations today. So East Asians may have just as much Neanderthal DNA a european but it is in different places. The only mechanism which can account for this is selection. The genetic material (or the vast bulk of it) of Neanderthal, Denisova and ourselves was around with H. heidelbergensis, only allelic frequencies have changed and small ammounts of successful alleles can go a long way - make a big difference.
    The Neanderthal remains found in Gibraltar were from around 27,000-28,000 years ago and I believe represent the last of the true Neanderthals but there is no evidence any gene flow occured between that Iberian population and modern humans that later occupied that zone. Those Neanderthals were likely pushed down there south by the last 1 or 2 ice ages and may not have been a very high population - that was eventually displaced, died off naturally or were killed off by the greater population of modern humans. As far as I know the main interbreeding/gene flow took place far earlier in modern day Israel as different modern human groups passed through that area. But mountainous areas such as the Caucasus, Taurus, Zagros, Hindu Kush may have refuged Neanderthals into much more recent times. Neanderthal remains are almost if not exclusively found in caves and along with their physical adaptations it is clear they were at home in mountainous regions.

    Evolution is rarely a clear cut off from one species to another. Only very few (debateable) hybrid neanderthals fossils have been found and only a small number of modern day populations have been tested for Neanderthal DNA. I am yet to see any rigorous testing fo people from the middle east. In remote or ethnocentric areas of the middle east and central europe (and possibly western europe) there may be people that have much higher percentages of Neanderthal DNA due to their isolation or enclosed gene pool (ie jewish injunctions and muslim ethnocentricity). Additionally if there were people with higher % neanderthal DNA, they may not appear as robust physically as ancient mock ups due to advances in technology, diet and culture.

    In the bible there are a few hints at the possibility highly neanderthalithic people were around and known. There is the famous 'nephilim' that described giants 'men of renown..who took the daughter of men'...but the description of giants was not neccessarily literal in terms of physical height but may have referred to fiercness, strength, cruelty and aggression - all of which the neanderthal likely had. They were shorter and stockier than modern humans but very strong and capable. There is Esau who is described exactly like a Neanderthal. There is also a wealth of european folktales that describe trolls, goblins, dwarves, beaked nosed witches etc that suspiciously resemble characteristics of the neanderthal.

    One of the biggest physical giveaways is the skull structure and nasal cavities of neanderthal remains. They all had rather large long noses, sloping foreheads, thick neck and small chins. Most modern day people in europe and asia have thinner necks (and bodies in general), high foreheads, prominent chins and smaller noses. Semitic people however often have large noses, small chins and sloping foreheads. Most muslims and jews are renown for their large beaked noses, often extreme hairiness (possibly a trait passed on from neanderthals who had after all been in the cold northern hemispheres for a LONG time and would surely have evolved hairiness for warmth) and often very thick set body shapes. Mock ups of neanderthals usually show large puppet like noses but avoid depicting anything that resembles a jewish or arab nose!








    The above mockup if it had correct denser facial hair - a longer beard - and was wearing islamic clothing could easily pass for a modern day arab.



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